Aggressive AI

[Indiansmoke]

I have been playing CiV 4 for quite a while, but for some reason never used the Agg AI option. A couple of weeks ago I came across an interview given by Blake. The programmer of the AI for BTS. He said that Agg AI is much more challenging, the real civ! So I thought I'd give it a try.

And guess what, it is much much harder.

I play at monarch level normal speed and map size, and I have been facing the following difficulties which do not exist at that extent in normal play.

• AI builds more units early. As a concequence it is much more difficult to expand by war.
• War weariness is much bigger, because it takes you much more time to win a war.
• You have to keep updated military in numbers throughout the game as there are always threats
• Religion plays a bigger role, you cannot afford to have everyone annoyed with you.
• You have to give in to stupid demands more frequently.
• It is true that at the begining you can tech faster than the AI, but it is much riskier not to build at least 6-7 axes - swords even if you don't plan on going to war.

Bottom line after about 1.200 AD I always fall behind in reasearch by 1 or 2 civs. I either do not have enough cities, or war weariness has killed me.

Has anyone played Agg AI? I would like to know what you think, or how you approach the game as I am struggling!

 

[Ruler]

I like aggressive AI lot but I can't understand why the hell AI has to build so many freaking units couldn't it be aggressive AI just with normal unitspam. It just fits more in my playing style as I like to keep my empire defended. You don't have to be very smart to tell if AI builds more units all thing you need to do is to build more units as well.

But it totally sucks if there's AI who build units like normal AI and techs like like normal AI too and then you have to deal with those psychos with insane unitspam. I would call unbalanced and definitely very amateurish from Blake side. I don't know if that's the case though.

No doubt, balancing units and research can take a few game if you start to play with aggressive AI.


EDIT: Could it be hard to do some modification and switch AI unitspam to normal??

 

[MrCynical]

Much as Blake tries to claim it as Aggressive AI is harder, actually playing the game indicates this is not true (or at best comes with the qualifier "until medieval times").

The main differences of aggressive AI over normal is that they spam even more units, and are more likely to attack their neighbours. Basically you can guarantee some neighbour will invade in the early stages with a stack which you need more than normal unit production to survive. Beyond that first rush though, Aggressive is much easier, and far more predictable than Normal AI. The pattern is quite simple in aggressive mode:

1)All but the most pacifist of AIs spam huge numbers of units but build no infrastructure in the ancient age.

2)They all attack a neighbour (interestingly not always the human player. If the human player gets lucky, or has an island to themselves, they have already won the game).

3)AI - AI wars become meatgrinders with both sides burning up huge numbers of units for minimal gain. The human may be destroyed at this point, but if they survive they have a winning lead.

4)Thanks to the cost of building and supporting all their units, the AI economy is in the drink and their tech pace is abysmal. The human player is probably nearing medieval times by now, but the AI are still stuck with ancient age units. Still, they build another stack and fling it at them.

5)Unless the human player is severely incompetant, the tech lead is sufficient to win with a much lower number of units than the AI. Human continues to tech happily into the renaissance.

6)The AI has probably dragged itself into the Medieval age by now, but continues to spam units. The human player in the meantime reaches rifling, and it's game over. Even with it's entire economy ploughed into supporting vast medieval armies, it can't combat rifles and infrastructure.

7)Hopelessly backward AIs squabble amongst themselves with a stagnant tech level while the human player takes the win of their choice.

The only remotely challenging feature of Aggressive AI is surviving the first age or two. Beyond that it becomes trivial. It's nowhere near up to the calibre of normal AI. Unfortunately Blake has a downright childish attitude to feedback, and I'm not sure if this is going to get fixed.

 

[MrFelony]

i have enough problems dealing with my computer handling civ normal. I doubt it could handle these 100 unit stacks i hear about whenever agg AI is mentioned. and honestly it seems boring to have to just sit there building ton and tons of units :/

 

[Indiansmoke]

i have enough problems dealing with my computer handling civ normal. I doubt it could handle these 100 unit stacks i hear about whenever agg AI is mentioned. and honestly it seems boring to have to just sit there building ton and tons of units :/

No-one talked about 100 units, by huge stacks we mean 15 units instead of lets say 7 in normal.

 

[Indiansmoke]

Much as Blake tries to claim it as Aggressive AI is harder, actually playing the game indicates this is not true (or at best comes with the qualifier "until medieval times") .

Obviously we are having a different experience, by the way what speed do you play?

The main differences of aggressive AI over normal is that they spam even more units, and are more likely to attack their neighbours. Basically you can guarantee some neighbour will invade in the early stages with a stack which you need more than normal unit production to survive. Beyond that first rush though, Aggressive is much easier, and far more predictable than Normal AI. The pattern is quite simple in aggressive mode:.

I agree they spam more units, but even in normal AI usually you have some neigbour attack. In my Agg AI games I had a lot of neighbours remaining friendly until the end, obviously not everyone though.

1)All but the most pacifist of AIs spam huge numbers of units but build no infrastructure in the ancient age.

They do not spam huge numbers, they spam logical numbers, numbers that a human would spam if they wanted to attack or defend

2)They all attack a neighbour (interestingly not always the human player. If the human player gets lucky, or has an island to themselves, they have already won the game).

Yes map plays a big role, last game I played I was with boudica by ourselves on an island, everyone else was teching happy when I was in constant war with Boudica!

3)AI - AI wars become meatgrinders with both sides burning up huge numbers of units for minimal gain. The human may be destroyed at this point, but if they survive they have a winning lead.).

This is my point even if you win the war war weariness is killing you. The AI does not nesesserily have big numbers, last game I played (Boudica game) I was Augustus and tried to rush with 6 pretorians. Guess what Boudica had defending....6 promoted axes and an archer!!!

4)Thanks to the cost of building and supporting all their units, the AI economy is in the drink and their tech pace is abysmal. The human player is probably nearing medieval times by now, but the AI are still stuck with ancient age units. Still, they build another stack and fling it at them.

5)Unless the human player is severely incompetant, the tech lead is sufficient to win with a much lower number of units than the AI. Human continues to tech happily into the renaissance.

I don't know how competent you are but I can win consistently on Monarch and even on emperor with normal AI, but I have lost 4 straight games with Agg AI.

6)The AI has probably dragged itself into the Medieval age by now, but continues to spam units. The human player in the meantime reaches rifling, and it's game over. Even with it's entire economy ploughed into supporting vast medieval armies, it can't combat rifles and infrastructure.

This could be true in a convinient map, where you are given the space to expand peacefully and create some units only for defence. If you have to exp[and through war things are very different, you will propably be the one behind in tech.

7)Hopelessly backward AIs squabble amongst themselves with a stagnant tech level while the human player takes the win of their choice.

The only remotely challenging feature of Aggressive AI is surviving the first age or two. Beyond that it becomes trivial. It's nowhere near up to the calibre of normal AI. Unfortunately Blake has a downright childish attitude to feedback, and I'm not sure if this is going to get fixed.

Isn't it the same with normal AI, don't you know by 1.400AD whether you will win or not? But with Agg AI I think it is even less trivial, war threat is always there so you have to keep lots of units, slow down reasearch yourself.

 

[MrFelony]

you didnt, but in almost every aggressive AI thread someone mentions them lol. It just doesnt seem that appealing :/. and i just can't imagine adjusting to emperor AND agg AI at the same time

edit: after reading your responses to cynical, are you sure you're running agg AI? agg AI is know for having HUGE SoDs. 15 doesnt really seem like that big for agg AI :/

 

[Indiansmoke]

you didnt, but in almost every aggressive AI thread someone mentions them lol. It just doesnt seem that appealing :/. and i just can't imagine adjusting to emperor AND agg AI at the same time

edit: after reading your responses to cynical, are you sure you're running agg AI?

Yes I am sure, and I honestly do not know why people are saying about 100's of units. It is not the experience I had in the 4 games I played.

I admit I am getting frustrated myself, not being able to win is not that apealing ...but is definately more challenging and closer to the game you would play against human opponents.

 

[Ruler]

No-one talked about 100 units, by huge stacks we mean 15 units instead of lets say 7 in normal.

15 units, just wait. I've won one Domination Emperor game with aggressive AI and I'm not going to never do it again. Maybe 100 is little bit too much but lets say 2 stack of 70 units is normal if that makes any different and stack of 30 units should come out the door in no time.

I couldn't care what is real and what not, but aggressive AI fun who of us doesn't want to play sometimes with like Monty or Shaka all around. Real blood-bath.

 

[Indiansmoke]

15 units, just wait. I've won one Domination Emperor game with aggressive AI and I'm not going to never do it again. Maybe 100 is little bit too much but lets say 2 stack of 70 units is normal if that makes any different and stack of 30 units should come out the door in no time.

I couldn't care what is real and what not, but aggressive AI fun who of us doesn't want to play sometimes with like Monty or Shaka all around. Real blood-bath.

Maybe in the 4 games I played it was a coincidence but I never saw a stack bigger than 20 units, and I had almost every aggressive civ around.

 

[Ruler]

Huh, you have actually finished those? You can see stack of 20 units in normal games. Heck, I had 35 units in my Dutch game at Uberfish thread and I couldn't do for sith.

 

[Indiansmoke]

Huh, you have actually finished those? You can see stack of 20 units in normal games. Heck, I had 35 units in my Dutch game at Uberfish thread and I couldn't do for sith.

The truth is I quit at around 1600 - 1700 AD in all games because I was never giong to win.

If you mean seeing huge stacks at 1900 then that is not so strange is it? By that time cities are pumping out 1 modern armor per turn!

I am talking about up until Infantry.

By the way the Dutch game was in Deity not Monarch.

 

[MrCynical]

Obviously we are having a different experience, by the way what speed do you play?

I normally play Epic or Marathon speeds.

They do not spam huge numbers, they spam logical numbers, numbers that a human would spam if they wanted to attack or defend

This simply isn't consistent with what I see in Aggressive mode, or what others report. Stacks of 40+ units even in the ancient age are not that uncommon. The AI seems to completely flatline its economy just in unit support. Stacks well into 3 figures are the norm, not the exception later on, even if they are outdated.

This is my point even if you win the war war weariness is killing you. The AI does not nesesserily have big numbers, last game I played (Boudica game) I was Augustus and tried to rush with 6 pretorians. Guess what Boudica had defending....6 promoted axes and an archer!!!

Aggressive AI wars tend to be short and sharp - the AI slings it's entire stack into the nearest border city. It usually doesn't even pillage. Either the human player destroys it, or not. War weariness is not really a problem any more than in normal mode. It messes up the AIs, but that's only because they don't take peace in a stalemate.

Isn't it the same with normal AI, don't you know by 1.400AD whether you will win or not? But with Agg AI I think it is even less trivial, war threat is always there so you have to keep lots of units, slow down reasearch yourself.

With Aggressive AI it's more like knowing whether I've won or not by 1400BC. If I survived the first rush it's practically game over. There's no real war threat in the later stages of the game because their military is so outdated. They'll usually go for a neighbouring AI instead, and even if they do come after me, it doesn't take that many infantry to beat a hundred macemen.

 

[Ruler]

To be honest I don't remember that game, but I damm well remember 2 stack of 25-30 elephants, maces and pikes. When I made my first anti-stack stack ever and city raider stack. That's just something remarkable.

 

[Indiansmoke]

I normally play Epic or Marathon speeds.



This simply isn't consistent with what I see in Aggressive mode, or what others report. Stacks of 40+ units even in the ancient age are not that uncommon. The AI seems to completely flatline its economy just in unit support. Stacks well into 3 figures are the norm, not the exception later on, even if they are outdated.



Aggressive AI wars tend to be short and sharp - the AI slings it's entire stack into the nearest border city. It usually doesn't even pillage. Either the human player destroys it, or not. War weariness is not really a problem any more than in normal mode. It messes up the AIs, but that's only because they don't take peace in a stalemate.



With Aggressive AI it's more like knowing whether I've won or not by 1400BC. If I survived the first rush it's practically game over. There's no real war threat in the later stages of the game because their military is so outdated. They'll usually go for a neighbouring AI instead, and even if they do come after me, it doesn't take that many infantry to beat a hundred macemen.

Epic and Marathon speeds are totally different and much easier for humans in my opinion.

I cannot see how the AI will have a stack of 40 units in ancient times when it takes 4 - 6 turns to built 1 axeman (normal speed). Not to mention they have to built settlers workers barracks and granaries at least.

Even if they skip granaries or barracks they would need 4 cities pumping units non stop for 50 turns at least, not to mention that by the time they have 40 units to form that glorious stack we will be AD and they will be minus in cash and 0 in research.

 

[Sjaramei]

I play Aggressive AI at emperor level. The tech pace is slow yes, but it can also be frighteningly quick sometimes. I've had AI's getting rifles and tanks before me (and lots of them) For instance a game i just played Washington skipped the whole Liberalism (Education) line and got Rifles and Cavalry around 1400's. (thats very early for an Aggressive AI tech pace)

Games with Aggressive AI is very random. The AI's behave very different in tech pace and threat. Of the new guys Gilgamesh and the Khmer guy is some of the worst AI's to play against. (We all remember the good old Ragnar and Monty ) They will declare super early on you even when pleased if they sense weakness. (having 8-9 Axes/Swords thrown against you around 1500 BC isn't fun, though i can manage it )

From having played ~20 or so games with Aggressive AI on i like it. War is more challenging and in some games even after my early conquests i can get rival powers who really challenges me for the rest of the game. I probably should move up to Immortal soon since i win pretty much consistently, but i get my fair share of challenging games with it still. And you don't get those silly games where a bunch of AI's gang up together to tech like maniacs with silly bonuses, when you are stuck with an endless war with Shaka slow you down

But it's a matter of flavor really, if your playstyle is peaceful cultural/spaceship etc, Aggressive AI makes that easier if you can defend yourself. For Domination who tends to be my primary goal, Aggressive AI makes the game as it should be. (I like AI's sending stacks against my stacks instead of spamming Longbows inside their cities) Occupying a neighbour who isn't prepared for it with normal AI on, is cheesy for me. (I've stopped doing wild axe rushes, and prefer to wait until i get Catapults for my first war)

Oh and try to play until corporations get out of hand, i've never seen so much units in my life from an AI before (Gunships, Jet Fighters, Tanks and Infantry) I had a pretty decent stack to knock down his power i thought. I managed to lose 40-50 Mech Infantry and Tanks and Artillery in one instant after declaring. (I'm not used to Modern Warfare on equal terms in hindsight i should have had more gunships and Sam Infantry with me, but i didn't expect that massacre)

 

[MrCynical]

Epic and Marathon speeds are totally different and much easier for humans in my opinion.

Normally true, but for an aggressive AI that's technologically stagnant, the longer they can use all their ancient units the better.

I cannot see how the AI will have a stack of 40 units in ancient times when it takes 4 - 6 turns to built 1 axeman (normal speed). Not to mention they have to built settlers workers barracks and granaries at least.

You've neglected to allow for difficulty level, the whip, chop rushing etc. Why would an AI have only four cities anyway?

...and they will be minus in cash and 0 in research.

Which is exactly my point - they kill their economy with unit spam.

 

[Indiansmoke]

I play Aggressive AI at emperor level. The tech pace is slow yes, but it can also be frighteningly quick sometimes. I've had AI's getting rifles and tanks before me (and lots of them) For instance a game i just played Washington skipped the whole Liberalism (Education) line and got Rifles and Cavalry around 1400's. (thats very early for an Aggressive AI tech pace)

Games with Aggressive AI is very random. The AI's behave very different in tech pace and threat. Of the new guys Gilgamesh and the Khmer guy is some of the worst AI's to play against. (We all remember the good old Ragnar and Monty ) They will declare super early on you even when pleased if they sense weakness. (having 8-9 Axes/Swords thrown against you around 1500 BC isn't fun, though i can manage it )

From having played ~20 or so games with Aggressive AI on i like it. War is more challenging and in some games even after my early conquests i can get rival powers who really challenges me for the rest of the game. I probably should move up to Immortal soon since i win pretty much consistently, but i get my fair share of challenging games with it still. And you don't get those silly games where a bunch of AI's gang up together to tech like maniacs with silly bonuses, when you are stuck with an endless war with Shaka slow you down

But it's a matter of flavor really, if your playstyle is peaceful cultural/spaceship etc, Aggressive AI makes that easier if you can defend yourself. For Domination who tends to be my primary goal, Aggressive AI makes the game as it should be. (I like AI's sending stacks against my stacks instead of spamming Longbows inside their cities) Occupying a neighbour who isn't prepared for it with normal AI on, is cheesy for me. (I've stopped doing wild axe rushes, and prefer to wait until i get Catapults for my first war)

This is more my experience with Agg AI. You have a point and I will try that..get catapults first before attacking.

 

[boc4j]

I find aggressive-AI makes the game far more enjoyable for the war-monger, combined with marathon speed you can have many a thrilling game

 

[DMW]

I like Aggr AI too. Recently I switched to it and it gives me very challenging games. I play on Immortal level which means I always go slow on techs in the early phase and I never outtech all the AI's. The constant war and backstabbing makes my games very challenging and I love all the wars that are going on, I just like Aggr AI. Check my thread "How to kill a Juggernaut?" to see the messy situation Im currently in.