AI diplomacy

[eg577]

In a game I am playing, the Persians approached me with an offer for an alliance. An alliance really? To protect me from the treachorous Aztecs you say? It was a simple offer, they agree to ally with me and I agree to ally with them (no gold or anything involved). Hold your horses Xerxes, would you perhaps listen to my counter proposal? Before I added anything to the pot, my adviser says (about the current deal) that "This will probably be acceptable". Now, how about in addition to a mutal alliance, you also give me your world map??? Now, my Advisor (with a big frowny face): "They would never agree to such a deal!!!" Jeez, you think I was asking for his first born daughter or something...no biggie Ill just remove the world map and everything's honky dorey right? Wrong! After I removed the world map from the negotiations he must have been really ticked at the very idea of asking for his world map(I never asked him to accept the deal with the map, I just added it then removed it.) My adivsor (after I removed the map from the deal): "They will never agree to such a deal". Dag nabit, ok hmm "What may I give you for an alliance against the aztecs then??" "I do not see how such a deal can be made at this time" "WHAT TIME??? You just asked ME ten seconds ago!!! Whats screwed up with the AI, I just added something to the pot then immediately removed it and THAT changes the deal!!?!?!?!

Similair situation, involving "gold per turn": I put up technology for trade. "How much would you be willing to pay for Gunpowder, Chivalry, and Printing Press?" Reply: "This seems fair: 267 gold, the Republic, and world map" Advisor: "This deal will probably be acceptable" Hmm, how about if instead of all that I just ask for 1 gold per turn..whats the matter with making friends right? "They would never accept such a deal!" Too modest eh? What if I even it out a bit: you give me 1gold per turn and Ill give you not only gunpowder but also 2gold per turn, my world map and 100 gold? "They would never accept such a deal!!" Ok, maybe too many different things on the table at once scare him. Lets simply: you give me 1gold (lump sum) and I give you 1 gold per turn. No? What about for 30 gold per turn? No!? Must be some pretty lucky penny you got there Ghandi! Aha, but I have an offer you CAN'T refuse: I give you gunpowder, printing press, chivalry, 200 gold, 50 gold per turn, my world map, 4 different luxuries and ALL my cities. You just give me one gold per turn...deal? no!? ARRRG What do you want for The repulic then!?!? I kid you not: Gunpowder and 4 gold, per turn.

It seems that the AI is paranoid of giving you gold per turn, and receiving gold per turn even when you putting your whole empire at stake. Comments on this situation?

 

[Zouave]

I've said for months the Diplomatic AI is braindead and cited numerous examples.

Let's just leave it at that!!

 

[JFL_Dragon]

Hi Eg577

First Scenario

In the first instance, I suspect the AI examines what you are asking for in addittion(eg world map) and you upset him straightaway. After that the AI doesnt want anything to do with you.

Is this Realistic ? Maybe at the Neg Table he heard you whisper to your adviser about the world map and that ticked him off !!!!
I can accept that first case, I know you did not ask him to accept it, but think of it as wrote and you may accept it more.

In the 2nd Case

This is something Im looking at, the AI is very reluctant to give gold per turn. I think players were draining the Civs to much so the program was edited to dismiss all transactions involving gold per turn under certain circumstances.

So first he will pay you a lump sum , but hence no gpt. Your 2nd proposal is great for the AI. We both know which is the better deal, but the program excludes giving you any gpt.

So yes its a bug. There have been a few postings as to when the AI will accept gpt and under what circumstances but I havent seen any results yet.

I know its frustrating !!!!!!

Cheers

JFL_Dragon

 

[Shabbaman]

I think the AI calculates the total cost (i.e. 100 gold is 20 turns 5 gpt). This way a tech would cost the AI a lot if he'd agreed to 1 gpt for infinite turns... The AI takes gpt agreements with set lengths.

IMO gpt agreements are not always the right choice though: you get duped if the AI declares war on you (works the other way round too...)

 

[ProPain]

In my experience the AI has problems accepting deals where he's getting gpt since a patch a few months ago. I think he's affraid you'll declare war and get stuff on the cheap. Pre-patch I had some good results buying AI cities for gpt and then declaring war. Couldn't get those cities cheaper and there was a smaller chance of culture flipping too since the pop nationality changed (if i remember correctly).

After the patch things changed for gpt deals. Just try to add a gpt element in the AI's favor in an already ok peace deal involving cities. I always have the advisor change from 'this deal will be acceptable' to 'they will never accept'or even 'be insulted' kinda messages. Strangely the AI is also very suspicious when you try to trade a city for something. You can give a city away but try asking 1 gold lump sum for it and the AI will refuse.

Same thing goes for techs. You can make gpt for tech deals but once you break the agreement before the 20 turns are finished your rep is damaged and the AI won't make em again. I my experience this even happens when the AI declares war on you and you can't help the deal being broken. The way the AI feels about you is also a factor. When they're furious at you they won't give you anything for gpt where they might when they're gracious.

IMO it's not a bug, it's just a very drastic measure to prevent AI exploitation.

ProPain

 

[Sir Yelof]

Also, if the AI is at "breaking even" or losing money per turn due to their current research efforts, then they will not agree to any sort of gpt agreement. Likewise, if your sliders are set so that you're earning X gpt, they will not accept any deal from you that is greater than X gpt. (Strangely enough, you can then go into your city advisor and modify the tracks, and then the AI negotiator may consider your gpt offers...)

They put in the city trading rules as part of a patch, because capturing and selling cities was too much of a scam for the human player.

--Yelof

 

[Machi]

I've seen the exact same thing lots of times. You're negotiating people!!

n e g o t i a t i n g!!

that means give and take until you arrive at an agreement.

Someone said that the AI gets turned off by your offer. That is totally bogus. This is stupid AI programming plain and simple.

Anyone that doesn't see that either hasn't negotiated enough or simply hasnt read the original post!

 

[Zouave]

BTW, I've had civs come to me with a deal they wanted. I submit my counter-proposal after checking the screen. The EXACT SAME DEAL when I submit it gets some annoyed response about how cheap I am or such. That's the SAME deal the other civ proposed in the first place.

 

[Zouave]

Originally posted by Machi
I've seen the exact same thing lots of times. You're negotiating people!!

n e g o t i a t i n g!!

that means give and take until you arrive at an agreement.

Someone said that the AI gets turned off by your offer. That is totally bogus. This is stupid AI programming plain and simple . . .

I've been saying that since December. I'm glad more and more people are seeing it. Stupid and sloppy, and it needs to be patched.

 

[Evincar]

Originally posted by Zouave


I've been saying that since December. I'm glad more and more people are seeing it. Stupid and sloppy, and it needs to be patched.

The worst thing about it is that diplo has been "improved" every new patch, and seemingly, it doesn't get any better but rather more "braindead". Yeah, "braindead" I like how it sounds.

 

[Almightyjosh]

I don't know if this helps, but..
The AI will never give you more than a certain amount of what they're enarneing (in my experience).
You can go to two civs and offer them the same tech and they'll give you vastly different amounts of money per turn. Plus, if they have 200g in the bank, but are only earning 2g per turn, they will more often be happy to give you 200g straight up then 2g per turn, which would only be 40g all up.

I think the AI needs new economists!!