AI seems unreasonable in diplomacy - why?

[molesworth]

I often find when trying to trade with the AI, reources, diplomatic agreements - anything, they can be unreasonable. I.e: they will say someting like; "I don't think so after the way you treated Civilisation X." This is even though I may have had an agreement with Civilisation X but cancelled it peacefully after 20 turns, usually at the other Civs request. So I have done nothing untoward and yet when trying to make new trades all AI Civs seem to hold this against me. Anyone else experienced this? Know why it might be? Is it a bug in the programme? Or are the AI Civs just programmed to be unreasonable?

 

[Sir_Lancelot]

I often find when trying to trade with the AI, reources, diplomatic agreements - anything, they can be unreasonable. I.e: they will say someting like; "I don't think so after the way you treated Civilisation X." This is even though I may have had an agreement with Civilisation X but cancelled it peacefully after 20 turns, usually at the other Civs request. So I have done nothing untoward and yet when trying to make new trades all AI Civs seem to hold this against me. Anyone else experienced this? Know why it might be? Is it a bug in the programme? Or are the AI Civs just programmed to be unreasonable?

Don't take the AI too literally. Regardless what they say, it can be interpreted as 'yes' or 'no'.

They are programmed to be somewhat unreasonable, depending on the difficult level they want more in return than they offer themselves. There's a formula, but I don't remember it. On a given level, a "fair" trade for the AI would be it demanding 120 gold from the human for something worth only 100 between AI's.

 

[vmxa]

If you have razed towns, or broken deals you can get that msg. It definetly is saying they are aware of some irregularity.

Anyway, they are some what fair. It is just that most of the time players do not recognize what a deal is worth to them.

IOW what you tend to see is complains that the AI will not take wines plus something for lux X. The players is ignoring the fact that the lux they want is worth more to the players than just 1 happiness boost.

The human may have 3 lux already and the 4th will give them more with a market. Things like that.

You may want to look for an article on reputation, so you can try to not break yours before you want it broken.

 

[molesworth]

Yep, I realised something else recently about miltitary alliances. It seems that if you have one you must stay at war for the full 20 turns of the alliance. If you make peace before that but leave your ally still at war I think you take a rep. hit. Fair enough I suppose...

I did not know a 4th lux gives more benefit with a market place, that is interesting, hmmm ...

 

[gmaharriet]

I did not know a 4th lux gives more benefit with a market place, that is interesting, hmmm ...

Even a 3rd lux gives more benefit with a market...same as 4th...2 happy faces each.
5th and 6th each give 3 more, 7th and 8th each give 4 more.
So with all 8 luxes and a market you'd get a total of 20 happy faces. That's why other civs want so much more for the additional luxes. The value to you is HUGE!!!

 

[MAS]

I did not know a 4th lux gives more benefit with a market place, that is interesting, hmmm ...

1 lux gives one happy face in each connected city.
and 8 lux gives 8 happy faces in each connected city.
But if a city has a marked, then lux 1 and 2 will both give 1 happy face, lux 3 and 4 will give 2 each, lux 5 and 6, 3 happy faces each, and lux 7 and 8, 4 happy faces each. Like this:
1
2
3
4
5
Etc..

For a total of 20 with 8 luxes. As you can see, the main reason to build a marked is for the happiness.

If you have 10 cities, all 10 with a marked, the 7th lux you get will be worth 40 happy faces for you.

 

[molesworth]

That's cool. I have always been reluctant to build Marketplaces in heavily corrupted towns ... until now. I realise now that you really need to be build a Marketplace in every town, corrupt or not. I was reluctant to build them in corrupt towns before as it seemed like a waste of time and resources when the citizens would just waste the extra commerce. Same with Banks and Stock Exchanges. I read in a tutorial in the War Academy that raising taxmen in corrupt towns and cities actually produces more revenue than in less corrupt places. So I never used to build Marketplaces in corrupt towns, I just taxed them up and got them to contibute to the treasury in that way.

However the luxury benefit of a Marketplace seems to outweigh this consideration so I will build them everywhere from now on. Is the effect cumualtive with Banks and Stock Exchanges? - I don't think so from what I have observed in-game.

 

[MAS]

My corrupt towns very rarely go over size 6. usually they are size 5, 2 working and 3 specialist. If I get my hands on 3 lux resources (isn't hard to do) then there is no need for a marked. And if I don't have at least 3 lux, a marked wouldn't do anything.
So it would be useless to build a marked in corrupt towns.

And banks and stock exchanges only add 50% to the city tax output.

 

[gmaharriet]

That's cool. I have always been reluctant to build Marketplaces in heavily corrupted towns ... until now. I realise now that you really need to be build a Marketplace in every town, corrupt or not. I was reluctant to build them in corrupt towns before as it seemed like a waste of time and resources when the citizens would just waste the extra commerce. Same with Banks and Stock Exchanges. I read in a tutorial in the War Academy that raising taxmen in corrupt towns and cities actually produces more revenue than in less corrupt places. So I never used to build Marketplaces in corrupt towns, I just taxed them up and got them to contibute to the treasury in that way.

However the luxury benefit of a Marketplace seems to outweigh this consideration so I will build them everywhere from now on. Is the effect cumualtive with Banks and Stock Exchanges? - I don't think so from what I have observed in-game.

Noooooo!!! The whole point of specialist towns is to make gold/beakers without building ANY improvements. The specialists themselves are what keeps each town happy. Even a size 12 corrupt town should produce about 6 specialists, each one keeping a working citizen happy. And marketplaces have no effect on multiplying specialist gold output.

No markets, no harbors, no aqueducts, no temples...you would have to pay for maintenance on them. Just farmers tilling the irrigated fields to keep the specialists happy.

 

[Sir_Lancelot]

Sometimes a market can result in a WLTKD, and this reduces the waste, if the city is not too over-corrupted.

 

[MAS]

Sometimes a market can result in a WLTKD, and this reduces the waste, if the city is not too over-corrupted.

A city that is not too over-corrupted is what I would consider a part of my semi-core, they are not specialist towns and will eventually get fully improved anyway.

 

[vorlon_mi]

The only other exception to the "no buildings in highly corrupted towns" rule
is a somewhat larger city *on a river* that you capture from the AI.

For those, you need to pay attention when the resistance ends,
and move the citizens/specialists around so that the city stops growing.
If you let it slide (say, because you're busy continuing the war),
then the city can grow above size 6 all by itself. You may or may not want
a marketplace in such a city, to help with the happiness multiplier.
If you rearrange the specialists/citizens so it starves back down to size 6,
then you must also check on the city each time it shrinks. The citizens
often rearrange themselves to promote growth each time the pop changes.
Once the pop is stable in a specialist city, then you can let it run itself.

Just about any city which nets 3 or 4 uncorrupted shields is worth
investing in some buildings, like a market or a cultural building. Keep the cultural
building (temple or library, if they are cheap) just long enough to pop the
radius out, and then sell it.

 

[AutomatedTeller]

In fact, if it nets 3 or 4 uncorrupted shields, it will probably benefit from a courthouse and police station. also, if it gives you shields, it will probably give you a fair amount of gold.

 

[Sir_Lancelot]

A city that is not too over-corrupted is what I would consider a part of my semi-core, they are not specialist towns and will eventually get fully improved anyway.

I'm counting corruption percentage less than 90% as not "too over-corrupted"