AI Should Respect Your Territory

[TheNiceOne]

Originally posted by Cedrick
Your point is well taken, however, in the game it is one sided. The AI will always violate your borders but take offense when you return the favor. They also do not distinguish units. You will get the "get out" order for ships or workers.
I put one of my workers on automatic and he started building a road for trade. The AI border expanded over him and bang, I had a war because I wanted to trade

A worker can stay many turns in enemy territory. You will be asked to leave the first turn, but you can ignore it, and will not be forced to leave or declare war for many turns (typically 16 or 32 depending on how close to enemy cities the worker is). So the AI do distinguish between units that have an attack factor and those that don't (but it doesn't distinguish between a galley and a modern armor since both have a non-zero attack factor).
So you must have misunderstood what started the war. Was you told to leave or declare war (and chose the latter)? If so, you must have had military units inside enemy territory as well.

If the AI simply declared war, the worker was probably not the deciding factor, although the worker probably made the AI like you slightly less.

I do not know if there is a simple solution (programming wise) but the AI should show as much respect for your borders as you do thiers and distingish unit threats. That is, a worker building improvements should be viewed as a gift not a declaration of war.

But what you write here is almost as you wish it. It looks weird when an AI has several units inside your territory and still ask you t leave with your one worker, but the fact is that they follow exactly the same rules as you for when units may be forced to leave.

And a lone worker is not viewed as a declaration of war. When a lone worker stays inside enemy territory for many turns (32 turns if you keep it at least 4 squares from any enemy city), you will be contacted and told to leave or declare war. Just leave and enter the next turn and you'll get 32 more turns.

 

[Endureth]

Why should the AI respect my borders? I don't respect his.

-E

 

[Cedrick]

Originally posted by TheNiceOne

A worker can stay many turns in enemy territory. You will be asked to leave the first turn, but you can ignore it, and will not be forced to leave or declare war for many turns (typically 16 or 32 depending on how close to enemy cities the worker is). So the AI do distinguish between units that have an attack factor and those that don't (but it doesn't distinguish between a galley and a modern armor since both have a non-zero attack factor).
So you must have misunderstood what started the war. Was you told to leave or declare war (and chose the latter)? If so, you must have had military units inside enemy territory as well.

If the AI simply declared war, the worker was probably not the deciding factor, although the worker probably made the AI like you slightly less.

No, my worker was the only unit in the AI territory. They declared war the turn after the border expanded and the warning telling me to move. However, as you said, they may have been planning for war anyway. It was awhile ago that I played the game so I only vividly remember the warning and only the worker building a road. Per my advisor, our armies were the same and I was 1-2 tech ahead. Our cities were 3 tiles from each other so there was going to be a border overlap anyway.
It just seemed that the worker was the cause since I got the warning, ignored it, and then was declared war on.

 

[Mark Lucas TBP]

One problem I have with AI civs being touchy about borders is when I have no roads linking me with them and I want to trade with them. I can build roads right up to the edge of their territory, but it does me no good if they don't copplete the chain. If I send in workers, they get mad. I usually let AI workers do their thing in my territory, because they can't pillage.

I may just send some workers in to complete the road and see how long I can get away with it.

 

[scoutsout]

Darned annoying, the way the AI treats borders... and the way a distant rival always seems to be able to send a large military through a neighbor's territory.... quite annoying.

Whenever I see a distant rival's stack emerge from a neighbor's border, I will pay whatever the cost to get my neighbor in a military alliance against that distant civ... few things can cause a stack of Immortals to head for home like that...

I would also like to see the game designers implement a "Naval ROP". It's kind of a pain to have to contend with the AI bugging me to remove an empty scouting galley, when all I'm trying to do is explore a bit and meet some other civs... especially since the AI does not hesitate to park galleys in my territorial coastal waters...

I almost never enter ROP agreements. I find it annoying when the other civ leaves units on a square that I want to send a worker to improve...

 

[kvasir]

I found that if you're more powerful or if they have room to make a detour, they would repect your territory.

I have had AI ships sailing AROUND my islands that are in their ways.

 

[Eyeoftiger]

One thing I would like to see is the ability to charge a toll to other nations who travel through your territory. If they don't want to give you a ROP, then you can say, "That's fine, it will cost you 5 gold per turn if you have units inside my borders (during peacetime) in order to use the roads."

 

[kvasir]

good idea!

hence making Suez, Panama, Gibraltar, Singapore, Istanbul etc real gold mines, just like real life!

 

[rychan]

Originally posted by Qitai
What is actually even more annoying it that if I try to cross an AI territory to (attack a foe) without ROP (because the Tech is not out yet (in Sengoku)), they ask me to leave. But the AI's would gladly allow other AI's troop to pass through them in masses to attack me without asking them to leave. And because of that, I can only defend and not attack. Whilst my foe happily cross the other AI territory to attack me. The stupid in-between AI is only 3 tiles thick but enough to stop me from crossing through.

On units passing through your territory, you can actually ask them to leave if you want to most of the time. Only problem is that they may declare war on you.

Hmm... that is indeed annoying. There's probably 100 little things like this in the game that I categorize as "the AI shouldn't know you're a human". The AI shouldn't get to know that it's dealing with a human versus another AI, but there are 100 cases like this that make it obvious that they do know.

 

[Fredric Drum]

omg

TEH QUEEN OF ALL BUMPS!!!


This is the number one game-ruining flaw. Crossing a border without permission should be equal to a declaration of war, just like in real life. The current CIV system is just plain silly and stupid and should be burnt at the stake. Can you imagine Mexican soldiers taking their sweet time walking across the US to attack Canada or settle at the north brink of Canada where they don't have any temples nearby? Neither can I.

At the very least give me the right to remove the offenders without being regarded as a criminal! When AI moves into my territory (which it does all the time), *I* have to declare war to get them out. It should be the other way around, they should have to declare war to enter my freaking territory. What the heck are Firaxis thinking?! My borders mean absolutely nothing... zero, zilch, nada, null og niks! Let's really hope they fix this for Civ4... I'd like to play the game, but not if this goes on.

 

[Fredric Drum]

Just another point. When you ask AI to leave, they say, 'sure, we'll leave!'. But they don't. They just keep on walking in the same direction as if nothing had happened. But all they want to do is get to the other side, they're not looking for a war, so the argument that 'just declare war on them' isn't valid. They just don't know HOW to do it otherwise because the programmers haven't told them how. This is really only sloppy design/programming.

 

[TheNiceOne]

Originally posted by Fredric Drum
Just another point. When you ask AI to leave, they say, 'sure, we'll leave!'. But they don't. They just keep on walking in the same direction as if nothing had happened. But all they want to do is get to the other side, they're not looking for a war, so the argument that 'just declare war on them' isn't valid. They just don't know HOW to do it otherwise because the programmers haven't told them how. This is really only sloppy design/programming.

This is a design decition and not sloppy programming, although I can understand thta you disagree with the design. Note that the human player plays by the exact same rules as you describe above. If you enter enemy territory, you will immediately be told to leave, and you will answer positively to this request, but you will be able to stay inside enemy territory for several more turns before you are forced to leave.

IMHO, its the human player's job to make sure that the AI isn't getting to the other side before you have settled the territory yourself. The early game would be easier and more boring if you could just settle close to enemy territory, thus establishing a border, and then be free to spend the time you want before settling the area behind.

 

[Fredric Drum]

Originally posted by TheNiceOne

This is a design decition and not sloppy programming, although I can understand thta you disagree with the design. Note that the human player plays by the exact same rules as you describe above. If you enter enemy territory, you will immediately be told to leave, and you will answer positively to this request, but you will be able to stay inside enemy territory for several more turns before you are forced to leave.

IMHO, its the human player's job to make sure that the AI isn't getting to the other side before you have settled the territory yourself. The early game would be easier and more boring if you could just settle close to enemy territory, thus establishing a border, and then be free to spend the time you want before settling the area behind.

You missed my point. The point is that AI players NEVER EVER do what they promise and leave. They ALWAYS just keep doing what they were doing. Why? Because the programmers did not tell the AI that they had other options than to keep going. The AI doesn't always want/need a war, but they still keep driving for a war because the code leaves no other option. That's what is silly. AI will ALWAYS violate your borders, not because you didn't put a chain of soldiers along your entire border, not because AI is planning to go to war with you, not because AI wants you to declare war, but because they are programmed to ALWAYS trespass if they want to get to the other side. They have no choice.

 

[kvasir]

Originally posted by Admiral_Tarton
Do what i do: completely surround your territory with units
I do it every time!(mainly to bug the AI

Yep

I've been playing France on the El Menacy world map. I've managed to block off Spain and Portugal at the Pyranees, thus effectively stopping them expanding via land. I also managed to stop the Romans from expanding out of the peninsula.

Amazingly, by stopping them from expanding territorially, i've also stopped their cultural and scientific advances. (They probably ran out of money or resources).

Interesting to note, every time I move my unit, the AIs would know there's a gap in the border and would immediately send its settlers and SPEARMAN in attempt to get out. Of course I always manage to stop them in time and they'd have to run back to their cities. I think eventually they've stopped doing this once I've advanced so far compared to them and they see no point of trying to sneak through.

You gotta wonder though, they should've expand via sea early on. Only Portugal managed to do this, but only by the middle of the game.

 

[#1 Person]

Once i was so sick of all the units crossing my land that i made a wall or Riflemen frome one cost to the other. I ended up Forrtifying them after then became annoyed at me for a diferent reason

 

[Nocturno]

I keep having expansionist civs run their scouts clear through my territory.. and im talking running through 10-25 squares of my territory and every round i click on the unit and im never able to tell its leader to pull it out or declare war only "Your forces are within our borders withdraw them now!" and he says he will but never does.

Gah its annoying having some weak civilization defy my might.

 

[Civslayer4sure]

Once i was so sick of all the units crossing my land that i made a wall or Riflemen frome one cost to the other. I ended up Forrtifying them after then became annoyed at me for a diferent reason

I used to do that too. But upgrading 100+ units per era, who are in adjacent squares, and divided into 3-4 units per square, spread around your expanding border, is a massive amount of PC gruntwork. I'll only do that now if I'm in the future era wth all techs and resources.
You'd thiink we were actually doing the moving and not the commander in chief giving an order.
It would be nice to be able to mark teams with numbers, Then I'd just press F1 and all my northern borderline would draw back a step or huddle into a stack, or attack even. well, till civ 4 we're stuck with the mediocracy of mindless manual labor.
It's probably best to just assume you'r at war and any unauthorized bordercrossings are acts of war per the "Civslayer International Treaty of 2004". No muss, no fuss. Civilizations will hang thier very existence on the actions of a galley or scout. Makes for fierce games with lotsa wars.
BTW. After you wipe out 3 civs and have captured worker hordes, the other civs will respect your borders. If you see them entering within it's because they have mustered the numbers to attack you.

 

[Speaker]

Originally posted by Fredric Drum
At the very least give me the right to remove the offenders without being regarded as a criminal! When AI moves into my territory (which it does all the time), *I* have to declare war to get them out. It should be the other way around, they should have to declare war to enter my freaking territory. What the heck are Firaxis thinking?!

This is not correct. The intruding forces declare war, not the country that is being intruded upon. If you tell an AI Civ to respect their borders and they don't want to, they will be forced to declare war on you. Similarly, if you march your units up to an AI city and they tell you to leave and you refuse, the war declaration is yours.

 

[Sickman]

I got lucky in game some time ago...

I was basically in the middle of whole world and I had just got off from military alliance when war declarations started flying all over.

FOUR different civilizations forces were rampaging through my territory and all I could do is amass defence forces to my cities and hope that they don't start declaring war to me.

Of course I asked them to leave but they didn't do it and they seemed not to be interested using naval transports either.

It was quite funny and reminded me a little bit of Belgium

I think the problem is that the whole diplomatic system of the game isn't that versatile that example civs could ask right of passage to certain troops.
Also I think it's annoying that workers cannot work up in rival territory because sometimes trading with them requires it.