AI unit cheat on Deity - Proof!

[sumthinelse]

Originally posted by Lt. 'Killer' M.
well, why not have it randomised, every civ has prod, then move, then comes the next civ. human place is determined randomly. how else do they want to do MP?????

Good question. How did civ2 do it? I didn't play any "serious" civ2 MP games and wasn't paying attention.

But it's also possible that they haven't even thought of this problem. Suppose they make MP work just like the current game. 8 human players. The 1st guy moves. 7 players get to try to take his cities and then rush produce defenders before he can counterattack.

Wouldn't this make the last players have a huge advantage if they formed an alliance (formal or informal) against the first players?

 

[Lt. 'Killer' M.]

That's exactly what I meant! With Civ2 (I think) it worked that way that everyone produced, then moved.... or maybe the human just went last....????

I'll check on that.

 

[sumthinelse]

I don't have civ2 installed. You could try a hot seat game to see how MP worked, I guess.

 

[Lt. 'Killer' M.]

That's what I plan to do, once I get this SG done (1 hour / turn, 10 turns per person)

 

[Evincar]

Originally posted by Lt. 'Killer' M.
WEll Evincar, maybe we just don't understand how the game runs...

let's see: what if it is like this: Human welath/science turn, human production turn (with flips), AI science/wealth turn (so they get tech cheaper because of the effort you made!!!!), AI production turn with rushing and buying; all AI actions completed immeadiately!

That would explain it!

Firaxis: is it like that?????? Or does the AI get free units??????

Ok, Ok, Maybe I can sleep peacefully tonight.

So flips take place during the owner's production phase. Thus, when a city flips to you, you can not produce anything before the AI counter-attacks. However, the AI can rush and draft ...not very fair eh? . Well, anyway we get to move other units and fortify them, which is maybe better. Of course, all we have said is valid asuming the AI was under rep, demo or monarchy, and the city was size 7 or more...I would be really disgusted if not.

BTW, rushing a rifleman from scratch is VERY expensive!! 384 gold, in Deity, 640 in regent isn't it? Why did the computer such a waste?

 

[Lt. 'Killer' M.]

Well it IS unfaur

the AI was demo (I think), the city was huge (size 18?), so it is probably draft+rush.... and they threw the money there because they were dying by the numbers..... from 26 to 7 cities in 1 turn.... then -2 per turn... yes, me warmonger

 

[Catt]

This is great that we keep finding "within rules" explanations for the supposed "cheats." I'd still like to see posted evidence of a real cheat, cause I just don't think that they happen.

Killer, BTW, deserves an awful lot of credit here -- (1) for announcing a suspected cheat with a saved game -- i.e., the evidence for all to review and study and determine whether or not there is some "within rules" explanation, and then (2) for accepting the possible explanations rather than simply huffing and puffing about the ridiculous cheatin' AI.

I'd really like to see others who think they've found a cheat follow Killer's example and post something that we can all examine.

 

[Lt. 'Killer' M.]

Catt, thanx

I guess my definiton of cheat is a little different from the accepted meaning, and also it may really be Firaxis never thought of this....... whatever it is, I can't wait to see how they fix it in MP

and I do always try to bring proove - it goes with being a scientist
"Who posted the only save ever of a Spearman defeating a healthy tank?"

 

[kring]

Originally posted by Evincar


BTW, rushing a rifleman from scratch is VERY expensive!! 384 gold, in Deity, 640 in regent isn't it? Why did the computer such a waste?

If I feel the need, in a similar situation, I would spend the vast gold instead of waiting a turn.

I am currently in a war started by the Chinese where I am doing just that when I can afford it. They have an Army and I don't, so I need every unit I can afford, esp. in the area where that Army is.

 

[sumthinelse]

Originally posted by Evincar


So flips take place during the owner's production phase. Thus, when a city flips to you, you can not produce anything before the AI counter-attacks. However, the AI can rush and draft ...not very fair eh? . Well, anyway we get to move other units and fortify them, which is maybe better.

Turn sequence:

1. human moves
2. All AIs move
3. Production for human and AI
   [/list=1]
   
   When do we think the flip occurs? I thought it was in the production phase, so the human doesn't get to counterattack before the AI rushes units.

 

[Qitai]

Humans can draft within a turn too. So, the advantage remains that of AI being able to produce on the same turn. So, only one extra unit compared to Human. Not two.

 

[Lt. 'Killer' M.]

Originally posted by sumthinelse


Turn sequence:

1. human moves
2. All AIs move
3. Production for human and AI
   [/list=1]
   
   When do we think the flip occurs? I thought it was in the production phase, so the human doesn't get to counterattack before the AI rushes units.

1. 
   
   it happenes in three, before the AI produces - so the AI can produce in the city, but a human cannot.

 

[sumthinelse]

Originally posted by Lt. 'Killer' M.
well, why not have it randomised, every civ has prod, then move, then comes the next civ. human place is determined randomly. how else do they want to do MP?????

You mean they randomize the move order it the first time, and the turns stay in that order for the rest of the game, right?

If you randomize on every turn, when you are at war with a guy, if he moves after you, he gets production and moves, and then he might get another production and move on the next turn before you move, which could be absolutely devastating!

 

[Lt. 'Killer' M.]

that's exactly what I meant, do it random at first, then keep it in that order.... sorry, should have made that clearer

otherwise i do not see how MP should work, or will it be humans first, then AIs???


I still thin it's not fair if it is production for all, moves for all, especially because of the flipping. Then, the later you are, the higher your chance of being able to rush and draft.

 

[sumthinelse]

Sounds good. We'll be watching PTW to see what happens.

 

[sumthinelse]

Quick review: we know what happens when you have not unchecked the "restart" option at the beginning of a game, on deity level, and you destroy that civ's last city. Another capital appears instantly with:

• 8 defensive units, e. g. spearmen
  
• 4 offensive units, e. g. archers
  
• 1 settler
  
• 2 workers
  
• all the culture all their cities had before
  

I was playing deity, had un-checked the "restart" option (yes, I checked my sanity this time), so I thought it was safe to take their last city.

It turns out they had a settler at the time I took the last city. Not too surprising, and obvious to me since they did not disappear from the diplo menu.

A few turns later a big stack of archers and spearmen appeared next to my city. "WTH?" I thought. So they get the 15 restart units even if you turn the "restart" option off, as long as they have one settler left.

Conclusion: any time the AI has no cities and builds one it gets the 15 bonus units, in addition to culture and whatever other units it had, even if "restart" is turned off!

Maybe you are not surprised, but it's not what I expected.

 

[Lt. 'Killer' M.]

sumthinelse, there may be another explaination!

i experienced similar things with Culturally linked starts, and with 'show friend moves'

I needed to start a game, change things, save it, reload it, start a fresh one for the changes to become active!


Did you see that settler? Was the new town in a 'strange' = respawn like location?

 

[sumthinelse]

Yes, it was a real settler. I loaded an earlier saved game, found and killed the settler before it founded the city, and then after I took the capital the French civ was 100% destroyed.

I guess there are 3 situations in which the AI gets the 15 extra units:

• start of game
  
• "restart" or "respawn" (without using settler)
  
• after all AI cities destroyed but AI builds new capital with settler
  

So if you have "restart" off, see if you can find a settler before you take the last AI city, on the higher levels. But even on regent they get all that culture, which is dangerous in its own way.

If you have "restart" enabled but the AI has a settler when you take the last city, what happens?

If the civ respawns on the opposite side of the world the only problem is war weariness, but if he has a settler nearby it might be worse than a "respawn"!