AIs in Deity LPs seem easier

[vanzlmalc]

I've been watching a lot of deity LPs lately and while they're very entertaining and informative they just seem a lot easier from what I've seen in my games.

I know one of the reasons they seem easier is that the players are extremely good so they get stuff faster which snowballs into getting more stuff even faster.. The thing is in most of LPs, the AI techs and upgrades units slower and makes a lot less units overall.

Some turn times for comparison:

-turn ~50: i get attacked by 15+ warriors, spearmen, archers, catapults and sometimes even a sword or two. If the attackers are celts or persians i have to rush buy more archers (them spear UUs are just too strong) so there is no money left for CB upgrades.

LPers get attacked by ~8 warriors and archers, maybe a spear, they easily push it back and take a city or two as the AI seems to stop making reinforcements.

-turn ~80 - 100: i'm usualy trying to take the 2nd cap with CBs, waiting for machinery to finish. The AI makes one pike every turn in the attacked city, I never saw that in any of LPs.

AI cities have 30+ defense, in LPs cities have less than 30.

I allways face gunpowder units shortly after turn 100. I rarely see a musket in LPs before turn 120 and when i do it's only one. In my games they make 5+

-turn 100 - 150: this is when i can do the most with xbows before AI enters industrial and starts making rifles and gatlings.

Often the AI will have way too many units to even come close to their cities. It will try to kill my units when I'm in their borders and retreat when i retreat. In Lps you see like 7-8 units getting picked off and the city falls shortly after while in my games there are 20+ units behind the city waiting for me to come closer if i dare.

If i get attacked here the AI sends a wall of muskets, knights, trebuchets and xbows. Every visible tile towards the attacking AI is occupied by his unit, no way i can kill all that even if i killed 4 units per turn becose that wall is backed up by another wall. In LCs china LP the mayans attack with 3 pikes, 2 swords a CB and a horse at turn 107.... Other LPs have similiar unit counts.

late game: the runaway will be in modern by turn 170 every time, I've even had Hiawatha reach atomic at turn 168 once. Most of AIs have great war bombers by turn 190, the runaway built 30+ planes. They get nukes, mobile sams and rocket arty by turn 210. The game often ends with SV by turn 240. LPs last till turn 270?

I do try to slow them down by making them war eachother.

I won deity only when i either had a very good start or very good AI cities i could annex (10 pop petra city at turn 90 can almost double your hammers)

So the question is why is there such a huge difference between my and LPers AIs? Could it be a combination of my DLCs , is my game somehow bugged or am i just unlucky every time?

 

[NotSure]

Good observations. Those players obviously have the skill to win on Deity so, like you, I would give them credit first. The one thing I noticed about Deity though, is the small percentage of games which are winnable. Like you pointed out, if Alex, Darius, Hiawatha, or any other strong early civ is near you, then you're in trouble. In fact violent runaways are problem on Deity wherever they spawn on the map.

Peaceful civs that tech fast are a problem too. On two occasions I've had Ramesses fly into the Atomic Age unopposed really. He threw down about a dozen cities early, took Rationalism, kept signing research agreements and closed the game by t240 (once on t229). Sejong is another peaceful runaway threat.

As for city strength and unit counts - it seems really random to me most of the time. I've played SG games that I've shadowed on my own and had drastically different results. I once attacked a civ about ten turns before the group did and brought significantly more units, but I still had more difficulty than the group. In my game the AI rush-bought walls and a castle (which it failed to do in the group game) and had more defenders than when the group attacked ten turns later. For a long time I suspected the AI was simply countering the player using an unfair advantage (knowledge of the number and type of units trained by the player). It's probably just as likely that it's all very random.

Bottom line for me is I think some games at that level just aren't winnable. Well, at least that belief makes me feel better about some of my performances. Anyway, I would guess that anyone who has made several Deity LPs has had at least as many defeats (recorded and never posted) as they had victories. It seems like a lot of work to amuse some YouTube viewers to me. It's probably why you don't see many of them anymore either.

 

[Radthereptile]

If its a LP on YouTube keep in mind the game is not random. I stream quite a bit and no one enjoys watching a player get beat around. A lot of things you don't see happen before the video is up. The player might have loaded and reloaded for a good start multiple times. If its YouTube, they're not posting a video unless they're doing well in it. It only seems easier because the poster chooses from a select few good games. You don't see the one where Monty and Atilla started right next to them. They show the video where the Dutch were their neighbor and they had plenty of space to be safe.

I'm not saying they aren't good. They're very skilled, but if its YouTube youre only seeing that player's best games. Keep that in mind.

 

[Moriarte]

So the question is why is there such a huge difference between my and LPers AIs? Could it be a combination of my DLCs , is my game somehow bugged or am i just unlucky every time?

Or maybe it isn't luck, but a combination of factors, which make one's game play superior. You can scout better (and faster), hunt barbs better, manage diplomacy better, micromanage every tile, fight without losing many units, etc. All of that can make You a director of AI's tech paths and build orders, which, ultimately, results in their tech rates and economy.

Or you can press next turn, skipping tons of annoying messages.

 

[BrokTheFanatic]

The AI can sometimes take off or get locked in stalemates. You will see this by replaying the same map, say, 5 or more times. Different opponents will become runaways, sometimes noone runs away, sometimes some AI civ will become strong in the late game after trailing for a long period of time (Siam does this a bit).

Much of this depends on how early DOWs go, certain civs need early success which they snowball. If they fail they tend to flounder. Some like to be peaceful as they expand and build a base, if left alone they will become strong in the late game.

What you do also has an affect on all of this. You can sometimes arrange DOWs on someone strong, who you choose to have DoFs and RAs with makes a difference and who you sell luxuries to has a big difference (early early you sell to who you can, but after awhile you can pick and choose while everyone is still growing). I always seem to have extra luxuries that I can't trade (the AIs seem to lock in deals before you even know they have the luxury, you can see this when they offer to tarde for or demand a newly aquired luxury before you even know youhave it! (I guess workers finsih on the end of your turn)). I try my best to sell them to civs I either want to keep friendly with me or ones that seem weak, its minor but from testing it has an impact, especially on certain civs. Like Russia is ICS with good production os they tend to over settle and bog down in happiness, if you sell to them they continue to expand or grow, so I try to avoid them and sell to weaker civs.

Play around on the same map for awhile, its very interesting to see how things turn out diferently each game. And I don't believe every Diety game is winnable, at least not with an average starting spot.

 

[Justice1337]

First, make sure you are in the same version. It has seemed to me over the life of Civ V that certain versions were easier to win than others. I think G&K particularly ramped up the difficulty quite a bit.

Also check your map settings. Larger maps cause the AI to produce more units, even early on. And Continents maps cause more aggressive AI behavior in general because there are fewer opposing civs to balance their power. You'll see a lot of Diety LP's on Standard Pangea for this reason.

Other than that, don't forward settle, play diplomacy and prepare for the worst. Turn 30-40 DOW's are the worst, because the Iron Working AI hits a timing that's very hard to prepare for. Still, any DoW from a single Civ should be beatable on Diety, provided you prepare for it and use good tactics.

 

[Light Cleric]

I can partly answer that I suppose.

I do have games where I get heavily swarmed, but the problem is those games are not very entertaining to watch even though I can win them. Sure, fighting through waves of spam for dozens and dozens of turns is doable but it's not very fun to either play or watch. I've actually tried doing a few LPs before where this happens but I just die of boredom by like video 2 and my commentary reflects that.

It's also a matter of what civs you're dealing with and that comes with experience. For example if I see Pachacuti I immediately know that he's probably going to come at me with Swords and Composites because he loves him some military techs. If I see Alex I'm going to consider possibly building a few Spearmen because there's not a whole lot of things that can stand up to Companion Cavs. Darius just makes me cry myself to sleep at night, even an Archer/Warrior rush from him is lethal if he's in a Golden Age.

Having them attack each other is not always a good idea either; it's going to make them even more likely to build military units. I reserve bribing for when I either want to attack the target I'm bribing or I need them to slow someone down, i.e. bribing someone with a good military to attack someone I think is getting close to a space win.

Something to note in the Babylon LP is that even if I had been met by Swords/Spears/Composites(and there were some Composites and Cats) Babylon is insanely well equipped to survive that kind of early attack so it likely would have failed anyway. Sweden will have some breaks before sending a bunch of updated units at me. Problem is I'm Babylon so I'm ahead in tech lol.

I do have those games where I just explode. I rolled a random Byzantium game a while ago where I had the Celts go Honor and city-spam into me, leaving me faced with ~8 Pictish Warriors and some Chariot Archers/regular Archers on like turn 42. That's one of those games where you just say "welp, Deity" and move on.

I'm not saying they aren't good. They're very skilled, but if its YouTube youre only seeing that player's best games. Keep that in mind.

Yeah, more or less this. There are good games and bad games I don't show. That's also part of why I don't like streaming Civ; there's no guarantee the game you're playing is going to be entertaining in the slightest. I tried doing it once to show my friends who were new to Civ some stuff and it went pretty abysmally because the game didn't cooperate(although it did get Pilgrim to talk me into LPing, so I guess it wasn't that bad ).

For instance, my first attempt at my Bablyon LP spawned me right next to Alex but otherwise isolated. He rushed me with CBs/Hoplites at like turn 53, but I pushed him back hard with a bunch of Bowmen(which are an amazing UU, don't let people tell you otherwise ) and took him out. This left me basically isolated; the only other way to my area other than sea was through a weaving Jungle hill/mountain range and the nearest other civ was Egypt like 20 tiles away. That was going to be boooooooring.

Or maybe it isn't luck, but a combination of factors, which make one's game play superior. You can scout better (and faster), hunt barbs better, manage diplomacy better, micromanage every tile, fight without losing many units, etc. All of that can make You a director of AI's tech paths and build orders, which, ultimately, results in their tech rates and economy.

Or you can press next turn, skipping tons of annoying messages.

The tech rate thing is actually kind of important. Every civ you meet reduces the tech cost of techs that they've researched already(I know you already know that ). That can shave precious turns off of the techs on the Construction path and getting Construction 3-4 turns earlier can mean the difference between exploding and surviving.

 

[vanzlmalc]

Or maybe it isn't luck, but a combination of factors, which make one's game play superior.

The post is about what AI does not how well we play. I do know I'm not anywhere near as good as LC, Primevil, Madjinn or Yoruus.

I doubt there is anything we can do to prevent Boudica attacking with 5 spears at turn 40, Washington making a ton of minuteman at turn 110, Hiawathas and Catherines ICS when they're on the other side of the map etc.. Sure, i can forward settle on Boudica in a good defensive position. She will attack me no matter what i do so that seems like the best option, but that only handles one AI. Other AIs that are far away will do their thing no matter what we do. Bribing them to war/peace each other will only take you so far..

Sure, fighting through waves of spam for dozens and dozens of turns is doable but it's not very fun to either play or watch.

I agree, fighting endless waves of spam gets boring pretty fast tho i would be very interested to see how you handle it. The problem in cases like this is that if I kill the spam and take their cities other AIs just get more ahead because I had to delay building infrastructure and the NC and i did not capture as many cities as fast so my beakers are way lower. Sometimes i can kill 3 AIs with CBs/xBows by turn 120 while in case of a spammer i can only kill the spammer in the same time.

There are good games and bad games I don't show.

I guess this is what i wanted to hear, somehow i thought that LPs are like an average deity game.

Every civ you meet reduces the tech cost of techs that they've researched already

Yeah, i often open scout - monument - scout in maps with lots of rough terrain where the warrior can't scout that good. Meeting all the civs and CSs is a high priority for me.

In enjoyed watching your LPs very much, i hope you make some more

 

[tommynt]

what is most important is knowledge how AI works, how to "manipulate" it and so on. just overal game knowledge, knwoing things ahead before they happen and so on ..

-turn ~50: i get attacked by 15+ warriors, spearmen, archers, catapults and sometimes even a sword or two. If the attackers are celts or persians i have to rush buy more archers (them spear UUs are just too strong) so there is no money left for CB upgrades.

I never get attacked by 15 spears or whatever "out of blue"
either: I saw it coming for 5-10 turns before and collected potential attackers gold for myself making me able to rush buy units or upgarde while he is "broke" (deity ais never really are)
and a boarder city from which I dont plan further expanding will be located clever (like on hills behind some mountain) - or be close to a CS aly or .. making it easy to defend with like 3 units

OR I make the potential attacker attack another ai just before it dows

-turn ~80 - 100: i'm usualy trying to take the 2nd cap with CBs, waiting for machinery to finish. The AI makes one pike every turn in the attacked city, I never saw that in any of LPs.

well I try avoid attacking civs while they are "in golden age" (or just doing well). You should choose your target well ..
Just go for some easy to take outpost cities 1. and then use raods and terain or a possible offensive cita to make your life easier - also you should just forget attacking a "real" city with cbs at turn 80 their time is over for offense at turn 70 imo -

you can also make the civ dow another before you attack it yourself - well thats cheesy ..

And obviously as you said there is the snowball effect ...

The post is about what AI does not how well we play. I do know I'm not anywhere near as good as LC, Primevil, Madjinn or Yoruus.

try be as good as me and you ll do better as they do - maybe have a look at this:
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=492208

Good observations. Those players obviously have the skill to win on Deity so, like you, I would give them credit first. The one thing I noticed about Deity though, is the small percentage of games which are winnable

I am 100% sure that i ll win at least 80% of deity games i start - maybe not in record breaking times allways - but just winning aint too hard - for the main reason that ai isnt winning too fast even when doing better like being ahead in tech.

 

[The Pilgrim]

Welcome to CFC, vanzlmalc!

I'll say something outrageous. Honestly, everything that is showcased by deity players should be taken with a grain of salt. Video LP's, regular LP's and just casual games that they choose to share. Because the content totally depends on LP'er himself and size of his ego. Some egos are quite large and thus many relevant details about these games are omitted.

That being said, while showcased games are not random (as it was mentioned above, many games are just not interesting to play let alone to watch), they aren't necessarily easier than average either. I assume Yoruus uploads pretty much every game he plays and MP maps are definitely random, LC can't be accused for cherry picking nice and peaceful opponents and I've seen PrimEval and MD struggling.

I think big portion of 'looking easy' is derived from player's attitude and confidence. Player A knows he'll win eventually anyways and his current problems are nothing but a meaningless and temporary setback, and that is reflected in the commentary. At the same exact spot player B (maybe less experienced) panics and feels overwhelmed.

So to answer your question - yes and no. No, being able to win consistently is not tied to luck or cherry picking starts. And yes, things should be taken with a grain of salt.

 

[Gori the Grey]

There's an easy solution to this. Just play an LP!

 

[Light Cleric]

The post is about what AI does not how well we play. I do know I'm not anywhere near as good as LC, Primevil, Madjinn or Yoruus.

I doubt there is anything we can do to prevent Boudica attacking with 5 spears at turn 40, Washington making a ton of minuteman at turn 110, Hiawathas and Catherines ICS when they're on the other side of the map etc.. Sure, i can forward settle on Boudica in a good defensive position. She will attack me no matter what i do so that seems like the best option, but that only handles one AI. Other AIs that are far away will do their thing no matter what we do. Bribing them to war/peace each other will only take you so far..

There are some early game situations where the AI's insane bonuses just overrun you, yep. Like with Boudicca, it might be doable somehow but GG boosted Discipline Pictish Warriors pre-turn 50 are just absolutely insane to fight off. When it gets to about turn ~80 or so though I try to stop saying a situation is "impossible".

Later on though you can deal with other things. For example by t110 or so you can have Crossbows which deal with the Musket line quite well. Even if you don't, I cannot overstate the value of dropping a Citadel; they're an AMAZING improvement. The +100% defensive bonus is ridiculous. You get a Pike fortified in there with a general and suddenly he's at 55 strength without promotions. The result is attacking units take 30 damage from being next to the Citadel + a lot more if they actually attack. In DC #23 I'm actually staving off Discipline Riflemen with a Landsknect in a Citadel

With regard to runaway AIs on the other side of the map, the way to deal with them is to become a runaway yourself. It's not always easy but it's often doable. For example I had an Ethiopia game a while back where Korea was becoming an insane runaway in tech as he is wont to do. I ended up having to fight my way across the entire Pangaea to stop him, killing Sweden, Arabia, Carthage and the Celts to get to his territory and unloaded on him. I managed to take some of his satellite cities and nuke him for a whil take his stuff. It remains one of my more satisfying post-patch wins.

I agree, fighting endless waves of spam gets boring pretty fast tho i would be very interested to see how you handle it. The problem in cases like this is that if I kill the spam and take their cities other AIs just get more ahead because I had to delay building infrastructure and the NC and i did not capture as many cities as fast so my beakers are way lower. Sometimes i can kill 3 AIs with CBs/xBows by turn 120 while in case of a spammer i can only kill the spammer in the same time.

You have to know not just who you're fighting but try to gauge how that particular AI is playing. Each leader has his own flavors defined in XML from 1-10 but each game they are randomly changed in a range of +/- 2(there's a variable flavor_randomization_range iirc, I don't know too much about the XML). So, for instance, while Caesar has a base Warmonger value of 5, he could end up anywhere from 3(pretty peaceful) to 7(heavy warmonger). The Diplomacy By the Numbers sticky probably explains it better than I can.

You can kind of tell how the AI will play later from how they play in the beginning. If I see a civ, let's use Rome again, come at me with Warriors/Archers, he's not putting as much emphasis there and I can pretty safely attack him back. If he comes pretty hard with Composites/Ballistas, then I know he's putting emphasis on military and counterattacking him would be extremely dangerous so I want to find someone else to kill.

I guess this is what i wanted to hear, somehow i thought that LPs are like an average deity game.

Well for me it's hard to define what an "average" Deity game is since there is such a wild variance between every map. I have had many Deity games that are harder than my LPs but I've also had many that were easier, sometimes much easier.

Yeah, i often open scout - monument - scout in maps with lots of rough terrain where the warrior can't scout that good. Meeting all the civs and CSs is a high priority for me.

Just a tip, if you are planning on going Tradition you may want to skip the Monument and get it from Legalism especially if the hammers at your start aren't great. The free Amphitheater is nice sometimes but other times it can actually hurt you by messing up timing of policies. I don't always do it this way but I occasionally do.

In enjoyed watching your LPs very much, i hope you make some more

Thanks. I enjoy making them and I like that people enjoy watching them. I do wish there were more Deity LPers, though, sometimes it's nice to sit back and watch someone else do it

 

[scheva007]

Im watching a deity LP for the mongol scenario, uploaded may 2013 so pretty recent. And in my eyes he has it (a lot) easier too. for example, persia didnt make immediate peace unlike with him, india seems to have more troops, Alexander/byzantine declared war on me (where he declared war on alexander), and arabia was allied with the crusader states (making it harder to get to cairo). In fact in general more CS are allied to the opposing civs now

 

[The Pilgrim]

Thanks. I enjoy making them and I like that people enjoy watching them. I do wish there were more Deity LPers, though, sometimes it's nice to sit back and watch someone else do it

Lol. Just finished watching first Babylon episode. You took the words out my mouth. If anyone ever complains about you playing vs. easier AI, I'd like to have a word with them.

Im watching a deity LP for the mongol scenario, uploaded may 2013 so pretty recent. And in my eyes he has it (a lot) easier too. for example, persia didnt make immediate peace unlike with him, india seems to have more troops, Alexander/byzantine declared war on me (where he declared war on alexander), and arabia was allied with the crusader states (making it harder to get to cairo). In fact in general more CS are allied to the opposing civs now

A) Mongol scenario is vanilla based, in G&K AI has been improved.
B) It's not 'deity' difficulty per se. It just has tougher winning conditions (conquering all civs).
C) Keshiks make everything look easy.

 

[Greasy Dave]

The tech rate thing is actually kind of important. Every civ you meet reduces the tech cost of techs that they've researched already(I know you already know that ). That can shave precious turns off of the techs on the Construction path and getting Construction 3-4 turns earlier can mean the difference between exploding and surviving.

Wow, i didn't know that.... and i've been reading the strategy boards here since Vanilla first came out. How did I miss something like that?

So if I understand correctly, everytime you meet anew civ, the numbers beakers you need to research the techs they've researched is reduced by a small amount?

Some interesting posts. I've been struggling with deity since the november patch. I had a game with Elizabeth which I thought I could win...the most favourable position I've been in yet in deity - but to win I need to take down a runaway Ethiopia...and I just don't have the energy for the fight/slog. After reading these posts, maybe I'll bite the bullet and "believe" and go for it.

 

[The Pilgrim]

So if I understand correctly, everytime you meet anew civ, the numbers beakers you need to research the techs they've researched is reduced by a small amount?

Yes. Which is especially helpful in early game on deity due to AI's bonus techs.

Some interesting posts. I've been struggling with deity since the november patch. I had a game with Elizabeth which I thought I could win...the most favourable position I've been in yet in deity - but to win I need to take down a runaway Ethiopia...and I just don't have the energy for the fight/slog. After reading these posts, maybe I'll bite the bullet and "believe" and go for it.

I'd (re?)watch MadDjinn's LP's for some inspiration. Nobody makes deity look as easy as he does. It's just personality thing, I guess. When the game looks like a big crap, he cracks a joke and keeps going. And wins. No matter how bad you think you're doing, AI is doing worse. That's what I took from his LP's and that's, I think, what OP should take as well.
It's primary about teching. If you can catch up before the game ends (the earlier the better, of course), you can win. Whether it's fun this way is another question. I've abandoned countless number of winnable games to avoid super tedious endless grinding. Hate this part.

 

[Karmah]

Some turn times for comparison:

-turn ~50: i get attacked by 15+ warriors, spearmen, archers, catapults and sometimes even a sword or two. If the attackers are celts or persians i have to rush buy more archers (them spear UUs are just too strong) so there is no money left for CB upgrades.

LPers get attacked by ~8 warriors and archers, maybe a spear, they easily push it back and take a city or two as the AI seems to stop making reinforcements.

-turn ~80 - 100: i'm usualy trying to take the 2nd cap with CBs, waiting for machinery to finish. The AI makes one pike every turn in the attacked city, I never saw that in any of LPs.

AI cities have 30+ defense, in LPs cities have less than 30.

I allways face gunpowder units shortly after turn 100. I rarely see a musket in LPs before turn 120 and when i do it's only one. In my games they make 5+

-turn 100 - 150: this is when i can do the most with xbows before AI enters industrial and starts making rifles and gatlings.

Often the AI will have way too many units to even come close to their cities

This. The LPs you are watching are pre patch , you play post patch where IA buys quite a lot of units.
/thread

 

[Light Cleric]

Wow, i didn't know that.... and i've been reading the strategy boards here since Vanilla first came out. How did I miss something like that?

So if I understand correctly, everytime you meet anew civ, the numbers beakers you need to research the techs they've researched is reduced by a small amount?

IIRC it's a 2% reduction in cost for each other civ that has that tech. You can tell by comparing the cost of a tech to the one in Civilopedia. This is part of why I say tech paces are slower on Continents maps; not only are you not meeting as many AIs, one set of AIs isn't meeting the other until a while after Astronomy. It's not a bad way to gauge how many civs have a certain tech(sometimes you can do this by looking at CS units).

This. The LPs you are watching are pre patch , you play post patch where IA buys quite a lot of units.
/thread

Hmm, all my LPs were done post-patch

 

[Karmah]

Hmm, all my LPs were done post-patch

I ll have a look then my bad

 

[The Pilgrim]

This. The LPs you are watching are pre patch , you play post patch where IA buys quite a lot of units.

And most deity games are still winnable, although some of them are not so fun.