Alignment and the AC

Vrenir

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Fall from Heaven is, in many ways, amazingly developed. The distinctiveness of the civilizations and the mechanics of gameplay make it one of, if not the most original and compelling mod out there.

That said, there is one thing that stands out to me as possibly substandard when I play this game: the current alignment system and how it interacts with the Armageddon Counter.

From my reading in the Civlopedia and other online sources, it seems that "Good" and "Evil" are defined somewhat specifically in the FfH universe. "Good" is when a people respects the contract and resists the interference of the angels in the mortal world. "Evil" is when a people does the opposite, encourages the wars of the gods among men. To me, this dichotomy is a fascinating aspect of the mod's lore, because "Good," "Neutral," and "Evil" may not necessarily correspond with ideas that we would consider virtuous or abhorrent. For example, a culture that endorses slavery and brutal conquest might be "Good" because it advocates non-interference by the gods according to the compact. Another culture might be democratic and a beacon of justice for the oppressed, yet work toward a world ruled by an immanent angel and thus be aligned "Evil."

The problem I see is that this idea isn't really represented in-game. The Infernals and the Sheim are "Evil," which makes sense because they are attempting to interfere with and nullify the contract. However, so are the Mercurians who are labelled "Good." Similarly, the Balseraphs, Svaltar, and Calabim are all labelled "Evil," with no reason that I can see for that label save for the moral value placed upon their cultures' stances toward deception and human rights. By the same token, the Grigori ought to be clearly "Good," since they advocate non-interference more than any other civilization in the game.

My suggestion would be to reassign alignments for many of the civilizations, and base them on the more lore-centric (and more interesting) system. Have the "Good" nations fighting on behalf of the contract, the "Evil" nations acting on behalf of some angelic overlord, and the "Neutral" nations those who really don't care about anything save for their own little agendas in their own little corners of the world.

This could also tie into the Armageddon Counter. What exactly is the counter supposed to represent? In the Civlopedia, Kael describes it as a device developed to promote late-game action, to raise the stakes and pit "Good" civs against "Evil" civs. I think that's a wonderful idea, but I think that, like the alignments, it could use some refining.

If "Good" means enforcing the contract and "Evil" means undermining it, then the counter should really not simply be escalating toward the transformation of the world into the Infernal's Hell, it should be escalating toward an apocalyptic war between angels within the confines of the world. In other words, Hyboriem and his allies should not be the only ones to benefit from a higher count, and his terrain should not be the only one to spread on higher levels.

I would suggest that the Infernals, Mercurians, and Illians all play a part in the raising of the Armageddon Counter, but that each reap different benefits from it. Already in the game, the Infernals have Hell terrain and the Illians spread Ice. Perhaps these climate changes could be tied equally to the counter, so that it spreads within their borders and eventually beyond. Perhaps the Mercurians could have a similar system. The end result would literally be the meeting and clashing of Ice, Fire, and other elements, in both landscape and civilizations.

The higher the counter, the more extreme this conflict would become, and the more destructive it would be to the "Good" civilizations that sought to keep it from occurring. In this system, the existing mechanic for strained relations between alignments with a higher counter would make perfect sense.

As a side note, if this mechanic were used, it might be interesting to change the Illians into another late-spawned civilization, assembled as followers of a White Hand religion gained strength and sought to restore the power of Mulcarn. The system could also theoretically be expanded into other religions and civilizations until each of the five "elements" was represented: earth, wind, fire, water, and ether. Each could have a religion which then, as the counter escalates, has the ability to spawn a civilization and raise their patron to dominance over the mortal world.

Those are my thoughts on the matter; take it or leave it. I think that some, or all, of these ideas would fit well with the existing game, heighten its distinctiveness, and raise the final stakes of the conflict, while varying the outcome.

Whatever your response, please know that this is already an absolutely amazing piece of work. Your mod is a must-have and only gets better with each release. Thank you for all your hard and constant work.
 
Good and evil isn't who supports the compact and who doesn't it is which of the Gods rebelled against the one and which ones are fighting the ones who rebelled.

Agares, the original god to fall, is actually in favour of the compact as it allows him to try to convince the other gods to fall aswell, such as with Bhall, rather than be locked in constant battle with them...

And Basium doesn't care about the compact but he is good because he will do whatever he can to defeat evil, which in this mod is the defenition of good...
 
I find good and evil depends much on mana.

Chaos, Entropy and Death manas are evil.
Law, Life and Sun mana being good.
Elemental Manas are neutral.
Force, Spirit, Mind and Shadows are semi-good or semi-evil. (overall neutral)

So following that idea, it seems like anyone who dabbles in undead stuff or bringing about disorder and conflict are "evil".

Anyone who preserves life, order and brings light to the world is seen as "good".

Souls are also another idea. Souls are the currency of the gods and how the gods get those souls is an idea of whether they are good or evil.
Gods whom deceive or seduce souls can be seen as evil.
Gods whom gain souls through less deceptive or "honest" means can be seen as good.

Mulcarn couldn't care less about souls though, but I honestly don't think he's evil. I'd be pretty pissed too if no one cared about my part in creation despite how important it was. It's like bringing a very well thought-out gift to a birthday that I put a lot of work into and no one cares and just throws it aside.:cool:
 
Good and evil aren't about the compact. It's the standard D&D pre v.4.0 alignment system. You may be a hateful, oppressive murderous SoaB, but as long as you direct the bulk of your efforts into being anti-evil ( at least"evil" according to a very skewed definition of it), pro-legislature you are the embodiment of the highest virtues. Oh, and if you're the type who always stands true to the highest moral standards, and by extension acknowledges that law is not Goodness and as such acting with accordance with the legislature of the local area is not always your highest priority then, well, you're SOL. You won't get into the most Good heaven, instead you're trapped for all of eternity as a friggin gnome. (OK, so FFH setting doesn't have gnomes but you still get the point- Lawful is more Good than Good. And Lawful fighting (other) Evil...)

/rant

Edit: D'oh!
 
The only real problem I have with the alignment system is that Hannah the Irin is neutral and there isn't a neutral Svartalfar leader. The rest of the leaders and civilizations fit, but that's probably because I've read all of Kael's explanations for how the alignment system works. :lol:

Also you have to remember that law (the Compact) is defined as good, so saying that it isn't really misses the point of the system. Basium does everything he can to keep the world from falling into hell and that's ultimately a good thing. The Bannor fight evil often at the expense of their own people, but this keeps the other good and neutral nations safe from hell.

Also the Mercurians mostly chose to fall and become mortal so they aren't breaking the compact, if I remember correctly ( at least Basium did).
 
Also you have to remember that law (the Compact) is defined as good, so saying that it isn't really misses the point of the system. Basium does everything he can to keep the world from falling into hell and that's ultimately a good thing. The Bannor fight evil often at the expense of their own people, but this keeps the other good and neutral nations safe from hell.

I never said the Compact was wrong, neither is opposing evil. I merely present my beef with the D&D alignment system in which Lawfulness i more Good than Goodness. It is acceptable to do (lesser) evil for the greater good, but don't you dare break the law for it!
Basium may be saving the world from Agares' hell, but he's a psychopath who will mercilessly slaughter anyone he deems tainted- careless for the reasons or possibility of redemption (or even a mere opportunity to get smarter as -i think- his pedia entry illustrates).
The Bannor fight evil alright, but they also fight other nations who are not as "enlightened" to bring them the wonders of their current interpretation of the Code and Unquestioning Obedience.
All in all, it is not at all hard to imagine a civilization or individual than could not be called Good by any sane person's standard but would be "The Most Good Of All Because It's Better Than Good Itself" Lawful Good on the D&D alignment scale.
 
Nah alignment is just a means to try to make big wars when AC gets high. It is a game mechanic. Good and evil and anything else about morals is relative and the alignment system in FfH and D&D are absolute. Figure how the alignment system has nothing to do with morals. An Esus worshipper who backstabs his 'friends' is highly virtuous.

Since I don't do diplomacy but rather conquer everything, the only functions alignment gives me are: eidolons, druids or paladins; undercouncil > overcouncil vs hell terrain immunity.
 
To be honest "alignment" is really skewed...
Junil can be downright evil in my opinion. Blindly following laws can be just as dangerous and evil as raising the undead or pillaging the county-side.

In my opinion, it comes down to 2 things I guess. You help demons or you kill demons. There IS no good and evil there is simply that fact. Junil kills demons.
The problem with that is some races could give a crap about demons (Hippus, Lanun, Sidar, Calabim) So I have no idea.

Actually check out Hyborem's diplomacy screen and how he talks, he seems pretty nice to me. All friendly and "hey hey, help a demon out man!" :lol:

I guess it's more stereotypical thing... I think the alignment system needs more events that increase/decrease alignment and a lot more often. Just changing religions is kind of dull to me.
 
Something I find interesting about the Illians, they aren't especially concerned with the AC counter. It's not a matter of who gets in their way, it's a matter of when they get in their way. The Illians are, lore-wise, attempting to bring about a second age of ice. They'll do anything that requires-- including going to war with EVERYONE. Seems fairly fitting to me, seeing as there goal basically entails ruining everyone's field day.
 
Illians are annoying, they are the first civ I destroy when I spawn as Hyborem.
Apparently they think Hell Terrain is too hot... Well I'm certainly not going to let them make my wonderful Burning Sands turn to snow... So by turn 150 they have a stack of 10 champions knocking at their door. GG Illians, no snow for you, but I'll certainly turn most of you into manes and burn the rest of you in hell. :devil:
/rant :mad:
 
The only real problem I have with the alignment system is that Hannah the Irin is neutral and there isn't a neutral Svartalfar leader. The rest of the leaders and civilizations fit, but that's probably because I've read all of Kael's explanations for how the alignment system works. :lol:

Also you have to remember that law (the Compact) is defined as good, so saying that it isn't really misses the point of the system. Basium does everything he can to keep the world from falling into hell and that's ultimately a good thing. The Bannor fight evil often at the expense of their own people, but this keeps the other good and neutral nations safe from hell.

Also the Mercurians mostly chose to fall and become mortal so they aren't breaking the compact, if I remember correctly ( at least Basium did).

I would disagree that the Compact is defined as good, all of the gods agreed to it and it was proposed by the most neutral of the gods, Dagda...

And as for Basium, I think he would quite enjoy the world falling into hell, he doesn't care about any of the peoples of Erebus and he loves to kill demons, so that would almost be his definition of a good time, I think his arrival even puts up the AC a couple of points aswell...
 
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