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Allow us to kill at least 2 cs

Discussion in 'Civ - Ideas & Suggestions' started by Glassmage, Oct 22, 2013.

  1. Glassmage

    Glassmage The Desert Flame

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    title here. The warmonger exponential curve is too much now for killing small cs's. Mongol is pretty much more useless.
     
  2. arand86

    arand86 Warlord

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    I hold the opinion that the mongol CS bonus isn't for hunting down CS's alone, although that would help if CS's had little/no warmonger penalty.

    It's more useful in countering allied city states of your target civilization without having to buy out the CS beforehand.
     
  3. Theruss

    Theruss Warlord

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    At least two? Try at least one. Check out my thread about 70 turns of non stop war. I conquered Hong Kong and all the world hated and declared war on me and refused any sort of peace offer, it was ridiculous. :aargh:
     
  4. darden

    darden Chieftain

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    even for the AI, conquering a city state seems to mean that everyone else is going to hate you for the rest of the game.

    a couple games ago, Japan inexplicably took over a city state (not really sure why -- it was early game. they weren't allied with anyone, they weren't sitting on any rare luxury resources, and Japan had plenty of room to expand in other directions). but afterward, they were getting chain denounced for the remainder of the game.
     
  5. Theruss

    Theruss Warlord

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    ^Even for the AI, it's still pretty ridiculous.

    I think the "plus" maps might be more appealing now. For both the human player and the AI's. At least the CS' will be out of the way and possibly out of harms way.
     
  6. TheMarshmallowBear

    TheMarshmallowBear Benelovent Chieftain of the BearKingdom

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    If you are playing as mongols I don't think your warmonger penalty matters -.-
     
  7. Greizer85

    Greizer85 Emperor

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    Imo it should be like this:

    * If you take one CS: those civs you've met will have a minor diplo hit with you for 50 turns, then forget it. They won't outright DOW you but there may be a few denouncements if the civ wasn't friendly before. If someone had denounced you before then they might DOW you.
    * If someone was allied to the CS, they will hate you forever (like all civs do currently).
    * If you take a second CS, you will take an influence hit with every CS on the map that will fade over time, and a more severe penalty with other civs. However, it will still fade over time, but will take something like 80 turns to fully disappear, and there will likely be at least one DOW as a matter of course.
    * If you take a CS before you've met any other civs, then there should be no penalties, or very minor ones. Isolated starts need something to give you a leg up, especially on Deity and Immortal.

    The numbers could be tweaked ofc, but the idea with these penalties is that you would have to weigh carefully whether taking a CS or two is worth it or not. If you've got bad land to expand to and your worst rival has allied a nearby Military CS with a useless UU, then it might well be a viable option. Otoh if quests have given you a Cultural CS ally with very few luxury resources and poor land, then it wouldn't be so wise to take it. Etc.

    You could also make it so that a conquered CS is easier to flip to other civs with ideological pressure; they might remember their CS origins and flip merely in order to spite you. There are many viable changes... Imo Firaxis is far too conservative when it comes to changes like this.
     
  8. katfish

    katfish Warlord

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    Poor mongols are now always a butt of the joke.
     
  9. Glassmage

    Glassmage The Desert Flame

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    you already get the "all cs's declare war on you" penalty before the patch.... They really need to add more incentives to conquering cs's.
     
  10. Dralix

    Dralix Killer of threads

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    I have to go with no on this one
     
  11. headcase

    headcase Limit 1 Facepalm Per Turn

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    Conquering one in the first couple eras should be more forgivable.
     
  12. GoStu

    GoStu King

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    I support this idea; it undermines the all-too easy diplomatic victories we see now, and should force the AI to back up its pledges to protect them.

    I've always believed that diplomatic victory should come more from allies than it currently does anyway.
     
  13. crocivfanatic

    crocivfanatic Warlord

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    Yes indeed,after all countries started to care about such things only after 2 world war.
     
  14. Arachnofiend

    Arachnofiend Perturbed Pugilist

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    City-States are often times sitting on really good land, especially since the scripting for natural wonders puts then in/near the borders of a city-state pretty often.\

    I still don't quite understand why people want to do the German thing and stomp through poor little Belgium and expect the rest of the world to just smile and congratulate you on your conquest but whatever.

    It's not comparable because, unlike the real world where every state of any importance in the Ancient world no longer exists today, in Civ the major powers stay the same and what happens on Turn 10 still has a profound effect on Turn 250. Let's say you conquer a cultural city-state around turn 100. That's several thousand points of culture that Alex could have had that he now won't because that city-state no longer exists. Of course he's gonna be angry.
     
  15. katfish

    katfish Warlord

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    I don't think anyone would care if they stopped there and like "Whelp we okay now" and asked for peace.
     
  16. Arachnofiend

    Arachnofiend Perturbed Pugilist

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    This is a game for leaders who brought their civilization to greatness, not Neville Chamberlain. :crazyeye:
     
  17. Matthew.

    Matthew. Deity

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    I'd like to see a special formula for CS's in the early game. I can understand the world flipping out later on, but 3,000 BC? Cities were conquered all the time, people pushed off their land, borders constantly changing.

    From a gameplay perspective, it opens up more options, too. We already know early-game warfare has been neutered and it is often more punishing than beneficial... why not help it out a bit? If Mongolia wants to conquer a couple of neighbor CS's in the early game, sweet.
     
  18. ehecatzin

    ehecatzin Emperor

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    What this game needs is a simple casus belli system, not only would it make wars make sense, but could also give us more options in dealing with enemy CS's.
     
  19. Camikaze

    Camikaze Administrator Administrator

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    Moderator Action: Moved to Ideas & Suggestions. :)
     
  20. ViterboKnight

    ViterboKnight King

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    I agree with the "casus belli" discussion.
    There could be several points, most of them the game is currently able to identify, eg.:

    - the potential target has break the word he has given (to avoid expansion, to attack a common enemy, etc).
    - the potential target has been detected while stealing techs
    - the potential target has attacked a friend


    In addition, I also agree that, simply conquering a single city ctate shouldn't penalize the player for the entire game.
    Diplomatic penalties should (all right) be high enough, and depending on how warmonger tolerant is each rival, but it should tolerate a single city conquest (with a moderate penalty), and give big penalties for actual warmongers. However, these penalties should WEAR OFF with time (say, halved after 150 turns, normal speed, and totally gone after 250).
     

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