Alphabet -> Writing is WRONG (and other minor problems with civIV)

[mitsho]

On some preview sites, one can see provisory tech trees (Also here). On these Alphabet is a prerequisite for Writing which is just plainly wrong and unlogical. The People first invented a way to note things down (Hieroglyphs, Runes, the Incan way and the Sumerian way (don't recall the English names atm), etc. ... ). And when they had this, they fought on easier ways to do this (alphabet, but also the simpler Egyptian way [I need to look these names up...]). This is the logical tech development.
What would it be like with the civ3/4 tech tree? First, people invent some symbols, an A, then a B, C, D. Now that they carved these letters into a stone in some strange sequence, they wonder "Hey, Al, what can we do with these symbols?" " Well, let's use these symbolds to put infos down so that the following generations can read what we write down."

Now, tell me, which is more realistic? Erm, I thought so. Please, Firaxis, change this. It really makes more sense. The simplest way would be to just switch the two techs which probably would make sense anyways.

I know that this 'problem' is really really really not that important, but it's just something that itches me in every new civ, and I've changed it as soon as I could with every version. Well, I guess, everyone has such small 'unnecessary, but really wanted' changes/wishes. These minor fixes add much to the game too in my opinion...

mfG mitsho

 

[Superkrest]

i think that the "alphabet" in civ is a generic way of saying "we have written comunication" but your right..it should be worded different...maybe by calling it "symbols of comunications"

 

[apatheist]

That's a really good point. Civilizations learned to write inefficiently first, and then adopted alphabetic systems to make writing more efficient. We tend to learn things top-down, rather than bottom-up. Take learning a foreign language, for instance. Supposedly, immersion is the best way to learn. In that way, you learn phrases: comment ca va? means how are you? Eventually, you figure out the words comprising the phrase. Comment is how, ca is it or that, and va is going. Then you learn how to apply those words in other contexts, like il va, or he goes.

There's something similar in numeric notations as well. Civilizations learned awkward representations of numbers (like Roman numerals) first and were able to perform basic math with them. Only later did Indian numerals and decimal notation arise, which simplified the process and made it much, much easier to perform. You can argue that the switch from Roman numerals to Indian numerals in the late Middle Ages helped foster the growth in Western civilization that followed, as it allowed much more complex calculations in mathematics, science, accounting, etc. to be performed much more easily. Along those lines, I'd like to see separate mathematics technologies rather than the single one that existed in Civ4. I'd like to see at least Arithmetic, Geometry, Algebra, and Calculus.

 

[eddie_verdde]

I've been playing Civ for 12 years and I never thought of it. I guess I was too worried with the discover of writing to racionalize that you can't invent The Alphabet if you don't know the concept of Writing.

Definitely, it doesn't make any sense at all...good point mitsho

 

[josephstalin]

Well, there are other cases. For example Russians got Cyrillic alphabet first, then they try to write sfaff in it. So I guess what it really meant by Fireaxis, that you have to have some sort of system to write...
I understand your logic.

 

[apatheist]

The Cyrillic alphabet was a specific alphabet designed for the Slavic languages, using existing Latin and Greek alphabets as a starting point. The Slavs didn't develop their own writing independently, which was what the OP was talking about. Theirs was thus a "bottom-up" phenomenon, as opposed to the top-down manner in which independent development of writing occurred.

 

[Akka]

Well, in fact, in my mod I renamed "Alphabet" by "Symbols", and here it goes all well.

 

[Karaman]

Alphabet is just of reorganization of Writing!
first one writes down some drawings, then they evolve into pictograms, ieroglyphs, runes and so on!

That is why writing precedes Alphabet anyway,
especially because not in every language we have Sound -> Letter equivalent!

I support the topic founder!
It has to be Writing->Alphabet->Literature

 

[mitsho]

I'm delighted everyone agrees (everyone but Firaxis?), ...

mitsho

 

[warpstorm]

But Sequoia of the Cherokee developed (not invent since he saw examples of writing) the alphabet before writing, so it is not a perfect fit either.

 

[mitsho]

could you elaborate that (because I find it quite illogical to invent an alphabet without knowing another way of writing before). And besides, if you invent an alphabet, you sure will know beforehands what to do with it...

mfG mitsho

EDIT: I've looked him up in wikipedia and there it says nothing about developing an alphabet before writing. And Krikkitone probably is right... greets m

 

[KrikkitTwo]

Actually his example could be one of acquiring writing and alphabet at the same time, but not alphabet first.

 

[apatheist]

Perhaps this way of stating it conveys the point better. You can't have a useful alphabet without writing, but you can have useful writing without the alphabet.

 

[jkp1187]

Mitsho: Great point. Wish I'd thought of it.

 

[Avayaman]

maybe they can rename writing to written communication?

 

[qazxc]

What’s the point of writing if you can’t read, and what are you going to read if there’s nothing written?

Clearly, the Alphabet is an evolved codification of a sort. As to what the Writing tech might be, my theory is that it marks the availability of various inks, paper and other convenient writing surfaces.

q

 

[Aussie_Lurker]

Well, how about 'Symbolic Representation' as a replacement for alphabet-to represent how early traders represented numbers and goods on clay tablets and the like-which in turn led to a system of writing/alphabet?

Yours,
Aussie_Lurker.

 

[Vael]

On some preview sites, one can see provisory tech trees (Also here). On these Alphabet is a prerequisite for Writing which is just plainly wrong and unlogical.

You're reading the chart wrong. It says that Alphabet requires Writing. It appears Firaxis has already changed this.

 

[Gato Loco]

I just assume that the writing tech refers to the invantion of paper and ink. Before that you can write if you have an alphabet, but only on clay tablets.

 

[Moss]

You're reading the chart wrong. It says that Alphabet requires Writing. It appears Firaxis has already changed this.

What Vael said.