Alphabet -> Writing is WRONG (and other minor problems with civIV)

[ShunNakamura]

al·pha·bet Audio pronunciation of "alphabet" ( P ) Pronunciation Key (lf-bt, -bt)
n.

1. The letters of a language, arranged in the order fixed by custom.
2. A system of characters or symbols representing sounds or things.
3. A set of basic parts or elements: “genetic markers... that contain repeated sequences of the DNA alphabet” (Sandra Blakeslee).

write Audio pronunciation of "writing" ( P ) Pronunciation Key (rt)
v. wrote, (rt) writ·ten, (rtn) also writ (rt) writ·ing, writes
v. tr.

1.
1. To form (letters, words, or symbols) on a surface such as paper with an instrument such as a pen.
2. To spell: How do you write your name?
2. To form (letters or words) in cursive style.
3. To compose and set down, especially in literary or musical form: write a poem; write a prelude.
4. To draw up in legal form; draft: write a will.
5. To fill in or cover with writing: write a check; wrote five pages in an hour.
6. To express in writing; set down: write one's thoughts.
7. To communicate by correspondence: wrote that she was planning to visit.
8. To underwrite, as an insurance policy.
9. To indicate; mark: “Utter dejection was written on every face” (Winston S. Churchill).
10. To ordain or prophesy: It was written that the empire would fall.
11. Computer Science. To transfer or copy (information) from memory to a storage device or output device.


v. intr.

1. To trace or form letters, words, or symbols on paper or another surface.
2. To produce written material, such as articles or books.
3. To compose a letter; communicate by mail.

Hmm.. it appears to me from these definitions that an alphabet would be needed before writing. course I could have overlooked something, but it seems that if an alphabet is anything that represents a sound etc.. then wouldn't that cover just about any written form of language?(I knew in 6th grade we had studied the Egyptian alphabet(hierogryphics)!)

[edit] nvm.. found what I overlooked. You can have meanless writing without an Alphabet... Alphabet just gives it meaning.

 

[bad_ronald]

There are three main forms of written communication that have dominated human history. The first of these is basic symbols. Examples are Egyptian hieroglyphics, and Chinese characters.

The scripts that you mentioned are anything but basic. Chinese characters, for example, often contain both a semantic portion and a phonetic portion (roughly 97% of modern characters fall into this category). So, in some cases, one can pronounce a character without first learning the character as a whole (this isn't as true anymore since, like English orthography, Chinese characters have not been updated to reflect sound changes).

The second form of writing is a syllabary in which each symbol represents one full sound. In a syllabary for example, there would be one symbol for "ba", one for "be", one for "bi", etc. A good modern example of this is Ethiopian writing in which there are around thirty different root letters, with about seven modifiers each, representing a full sound made up of a consonant and a vowel.

When a writing system makes use of a base symbol (most often representing Ca [consonant + a]) with added marks/diacritics that change the character to the same consonant plus a different vowel, it is more properly called an alphasyllabary or a syllabic alphabet. In a true syllabary, there is no pattern among characters that represent syllables with identical onsets (i.e. "ka", "ke", "ki", 'ko", and "ku" would show no relationship to one another).

In an alphabet, there are dozens of symbols each representing part of a sound.

You misused the term "sound" earlier, as well. The thing you referred to as a sound earlier is a syllable, while what an alphabet represents is the sounds themselves (not a "part" of a sound).
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Hmm.. it appears to me from these definitions that an alphabet would be needed before writing. course I could have overlooked something, but it seems that if an alphabet is anything that represents a sound etc.. then wouldn't that cover just about any written form of language

The definitions that you quoted are not as technical as the ones that I provided, they reflect the way that words are used in common parlance not their meaning in the field of linguistics (and I think for the sake of the tech tree, we should stick to the technical definitions). An alphabet cannot exist before writing; though, they can come about simultaneously.

You can have meanless writing without an Alphabet... Alphabet just gives it meaning.

An alphabet is just one of many systems of writing; a syllabary is not meaningless, as it can encode just as much information as an alphabet can though this requires more symbols in most cases. (e.g. a language which has many mutations in the way consonants are manifested when appearing before a given vowel, like in Japanese where an 's' before an 'i' becomes 'sh', only in many more cases; in such a language a syllabary could actually have fewer characters than an alphabet which encoded all of the sounds of the language)

 

[ShunNakamura]

*shurg*. Those are the only definitions I know and have seen. So they are all that I have to go by. And since for most people I know the dictionary(the one I got at home follows up on the above defs) is the final word on what a word means I tend to rely more on the dictionary then other sources. Though if I saw a highly respected linguist text that said otherwise I would prolly reconsider. But never even seen a linguist text yet.. so dunno if I will in the future.

So I guess until I see irrefutable info that says otherwise I will prolly stick to what the dictionary says. And that at least stats that writing without an alphabet is useless since there will be no means as to get meaning from what was written down.

 

[Knight-Dragon]

The Chinese have been writing for thousands of years without an alphabet.

Civ4 is a Western game for a mainly Western audience - obviously its mechanics will be built fr a very Western perspective. Don't lose any sleep over it; it's just a game.

 

[Hyena]

Anobody who would like to read about different forms of writing and alphabets should definately pick up Jared Diamond's book "Guns, Germs and Steel". It is easily one of the better history books I have read in a while, and also contains alot of information on other subjects such as botany, geography, political science, biology, and linguistics. I promise, it is worth the read. Ciao.

 

[Delthayre]

For those interested in writing systems who would rather not have to go run to the library or a book store, http://www.omniglot.com/ 's an excellent source.

If you're nuts (mercy knows I am), you can sink $175 into a copy of The World's Writing Systems. More obtainably, Geoffrey Sampson's Writings Systems: A Linguistic Introduction offers detailed analysis of different writing system types.

 

[gun powder man]

Ever since this thread does say "and other problems with CivIV" I would like to point out that maybe some of the technologies are a little too early to include and should already be included. Examples: Animal Taming, Fishing, and Hunting. Before true civilizations where created, I would think that these would have been found if not required to have been found before civilization existed. At least they don't have a "Fire" technology.

 

[Hannabir]

The Alphabet should be a Small Wonder that comes with Writing, I think.