Alright, let's be honest with ourselves, Endgame Strategy

[Bill Bisco]

Fall from Heaven is a great game. It's a lot of fun Of course, it's also screwy and imbalanced in certain areas

I've played a few times and this is what it seemed to be for me.

1. If you're an evil civilization, being evil doesn't really do you much benefit at all. The Clan and the Doviello are generally far behind in technology and aren't much help as allies and the rest of them are stingy.

2. Switch to Runes as quickly as possible to become Neutral and friends with most people, and it gives Access to the Altar of the Luonnotar which you couldn't get anyway.

3. There is little reason not to get the Altar of the Luonnotar; it's great and makes priests better to supplement production. Plus, you keep it if you turn evil again later.

4. Choose Agriculture and stay with Agriculture. Unless you're in an island heavy game there's absolutely no reason to ever switch.

5. Adopt The Order. Basilicas are great. Be sure to make 3 Paladins. You'll keep them if you turn evil.

6. Once you've made a Basilica in every city of yours, Adopt the Ashen Veil. You will find that you'll actually be making more money since you switched. Sacrifice the Weak will double the population you have in all cities.

7. Keep Sacrifice the Weak until the end of time. There's no reason to abandon it. That + Agriculture = Insane.

8. Get whatever techs you find necessary until you get all of them or the remaining ones are unimportant

9. Get Future Tech, and Keep on Getting Future Tech. Eventually, your people get so happy, that it's better for you to convert every open tile of land in your empire into a farm. In fact, you'll start lamenting that those hills in your way.

That's kinda what I've noticed. In the end endgame when all the techs are out there and whatnot, it's in every player's best interest to be the Ashen Veil with Sacrifice the Weak and with every Plot of land being a farm, and with Priests pumped up from the Altar supplying all the production we could ever want.

I have simply noticed (personally) that it's much easier to trade technology and be at peace with Good and Neutral Civilizations rather than Evil ones. And, the fact that that 2 of the evil civilizations largely suck as AI doesn't help anything.

So, at the beginning of the game (as an Evil Civ) it seems best to switch to Neutral as quickly as possible and continue the game.

Whereas, towards the middle or end of the game, it's best to adopt the Ashen Veil and get Sacrifice the Weak no matter who you are.

 

[3141592]

Brain Dump:
I have found that an early drown rush can be effective and you can get the OO hero pretty early, making him invincible for quite some time.
Although the Clan and Doviello are weak the Caliban are often one of the strongest AI civs in the game, so if you are evil you may have a very good ally.
I think that your strategy outlines how there isn't enough penalty of switching religions.
Sacrifice the weak is obscenely powerful
Fortunately agriculture is getting nerfed some down to only +1 food in .23.
I never play into the the game late enough to get future tech, I don't like playing an already won game.
Such a huge game is hard to balance but often something that seems horribly unbalanced is only as unbalances as another 20 strategies you could try.

 

[Bill Bisco]

I may try the OO rush sometime, thanks.

As far as Good and Evil at the beginning. Cabalim are a decent AI to be sure. Of course, they still have to have a good location and whanot.

I have simply noticed (personally) that it's much easier to trade technology and be at peace with Good and Neutral Civilizations rather than Evil ones. And, the fact that that 2 of the evil civilizations largely suck as AI doesn't help anything.

So, at the beginning of the game (as an Evil Civ) it seems best to switch to Neutral as quickly as possible and continue the game.

Whereas, towards the middle or end of the game, it's best to adopt the Ashen Veil and get Sacrifice the Weak no matter who you are.

 

[xanaqui42]

2. Switch to Runes as quickly as possible to become Neutral and friends with most people, and it gives Access to the Altar of the Luonnotar which you couldn't get anyway.

Or you could rush The Ashen Veil, and ignore the "early" religions.

4. Choose Agriculture and stay with Agriculture. Unless you're in an island heavy game there's absolutely no reason to ever switch.

Under some circumstances, I'll go for Guardian of Nature. Note, however, that merely having Fellowship of Leaves as my state religion isn't enough- I need to have lots of Forests (and preferably I'm Ljosalfar).

5. Adopt The Order. Basilicas are great. Be sure to make 3 Paladins. You'll keep them if you turn evil.

I rarely have a game last long enough for me to get the Technology pre-requisite for Paladin, never mind building one.

6. Once you've made a Basilica in every city of yours, Adopt the Ashen Veil. You will find that you'll actually be making more money since you switched. Sacrifice the Weak will double the population you have in all cities.

Technically, it's worse than that, unless you have a really good solution for health (since unhealth is essentially treated as negative food). However, yes, this Civic still rocks.

9. Get Future Tech, and Keep on Getting Future Tech. Eventually, your people get so happy, that it's better for you to convert every open tile of land in your empire into a farm. In fact, you'll start lamenting that those hills in your way.

Wow- either you tech up far faster than I do, or your games are far longer. I rarely even get Omniscience (the pre-requisite for Future Tech) before the end of the game.

That's kinda what I've noticed. In the end endgame when all the techs are out there and whatnot, it's in every player's best interest to be the Ashen Veil with Sacrifice the Weak and with every Plot of land being a farm, and with Priests pumped up from the Altar supplying all the production we could ever want.

Well, unless you're going for an Altar of the Luonnotar (Final) victory, in which case Sacrifice the Weak isn't an option (at least during the turns that you're working on the Altar)

I guess as a side-note, when you're Neutral, you may want to consider getting three Druids, for the terra-forming in particular. It may even be worth leaving The Ashen Veil for Runes of Kilmorph for a few turns to build them.

 

[brainpan]

Such a huge game is hard to balance but often something that seems horribly unbalanced is only as unbalances as another 20 strategies you could try.

A good point. Another is that "unbalaced" play should generally be recognized by seasoned players, so that anyone attempting to "shoot the moon" invites a dogpile (which re-establishes a balance). Either that, or multiple players will simultaneously exploit one of the many "unbalances," which again, tends to restore order to the force.

 

[Amask]

do you really expect ppl to dogpile someone who's exploiting an imbalance?
from my experience, no one cares enough about what's going on in another part of the map until they actually have to deal with it themselves

so the person doing the exploiting will eat up his enemies one by one... actually organizing a dogpile is insanely hard, and even if everyone declares war on the evil exploiter, you can't force them to commit anything useful to the war... they'll send 5 units and keep on booming or fighting their own war

your second point now
there aren't that many imba strats
if everyone is doing one of them, or half do one, the other half do the second, then sure, that s o r t o f eliminates the imbalance, but it also eliminates strategy. There'd be no point in pursuing any other possible path that the gamemakers designed, because everyone knows one (or two) of them far surpass anything else you could pull off

 

[Bill Bisco]

Or you could rush The Ashen Veil, and ignore the "early" religions.

You could do that. If you started out as a Good Civ or a Neutral Civ, you could still go for the Altar while you were aiming for the Veil, and get both.

However, if you start out as evil, you can't progress the Altar at all. So, you're encouraged to become Neutral as quickly as possible. That's one thing that I'm trying to say here, that Evil gets screwed in multiple ways.

Similarly, it seems to me that going for the Altar is a no-brainer. Perhaps the rest of you could shed some light on this, and perhaps I should make a new topic.

Under some circumstances, I'll go for Guardian of Nature. Note, however, that merely having Fellowship of Leaves as my state religion isn't enough- I need to have lots of Forests (and preferably I'm Ljosalfar).

That is true, that is another option. I haven't tried it myself so what I can say is limited. However, it seems that Agriculture is available to everyone, comes sooner, and is simple and effective.

What's ironic, is that eventually with Sacrifice the Weak and Agriculture, it'd be better to cut down all of those Ancient Forests and build Farms (even for the elves).

I rarely have a game last long enough for me to get the Technology pre-requisite for Paladin, never mind building one.

Of course. Of course. Paladins are cheap in their own right. I was supposed to be scared by the coming of Armageddon, but my Paladin serving the Ashen Veil singlehandedly destroyed all of the Horsemen and Avatars.

Technically, it's worse than that, unless you have a really good solution for health (since unhealth is essentially treated as negative food). However, yes, this Civic still rocks.

You are right that health is a factor. However in my games this usually isn't a problem.

Wow- either you tech up far faster than I do, or your games are far longer. I rarely even get Omniscience (the pre-requisite for Future Tech) before the end of the game.

Well, unless you're going for an Altar of the Luonnotar (Final) victory, in which case Sacrifice the Weak isn't an option (at least during the turns that you're working on the Altar)

I guess as a side-note, when you're Neutral, you may want to consider getting three Druids, for the terra-forming in particular. It may even be worth leaving The Ashen Veil for Runes of Kilmorph for a few turns to build them.

Oh you are quite correct that most games do and should end before Future Tech. Personally, I find the Victory by completing the Altar rather silly. I think the game is trying to give the Good Players the Altar and the Evil ones Sacrifice the Weak. However, the Altar only serves to strengthen even more the Evil Players. And the evil player would be a fool to not have it.

 

[xanaqui42]

What's ironic, is that eventually with Sacrifice the Weak and Agriculture, it'd be better to cut down all of those Ancient Forests and build Farms (even for the elves).

As the Ljosalfar, the optimal late-game terrain (particularly if you go for Agriculture) is Elven Farmed Ancient Forested Grasslands (in other words, you can have Farmed Ancient Forests - there's no need to cut them down to get farms).

 

[Bill Bisco]

As the Ljosalfar, the optimal late-game terrain (particularly if you go for Agriculture) is Elven Farmed Ancient Forested Grasslands (in other words, you can have Farmed Ancient Forests - there's no need to cut them down to get farms).

Ah good point, I forget that you could build other things besides cottages in forests. (I keep on hearing about the cottage Ancient Forests).

 

[xAlephx]

Bill - All the religion founding, switching, spreading, re-temple-ing, and altar levels you are building are dedicated builder strats. Builders always win in the end if no one stops them from building.

As to why you wouldn't use altar - because it takes a minimum of 4 prophets to be really useful, and that's 4 great people you won't have to tech bulb. Tech bulbing in the early game is a HUGE edge. While Altar is really nice to have, it isn't as necessary for StW to whip out huge amounts of production. If anything, I would argue that Altar is a compensation for good/neutral not having StW.

There was an Amurite post on the main fourm in which an excellent Dain/Amurite AV rush strat was layed out. Early game academy, research KotE, and bulb next 5 all the way to Arcane Lore while simultaneously working towards founding AV (you'll want a second academy in your Veil holy city if it isn't your capital) and picking up other vital early techs. You can then smash the world under a Govannon powered endless army of skeletons backed up by hordes of fireball tossing Wizards while your already accelerated research goes insane under Scholarship. You definitely won't get anywhere close to seeing future tech before you've blown everyone off the map, but you will have rushed yourself into an excellent offensive war position AND a great research engine (farm/sage).

 

[Grey Fox]

The endgame is "meh" anyways. And was in vanilla too. Gets to a point where its just more more more, and more stuff is usually not more fun. FfH has something that Kael has pointed out several times and that is Double wins, which are stuff that in essence makes you a lot stronger which makes you win faster, at a point where you probably have won anyways...

 

[woodelf]

Yup. The only time I've ended a game is when I've lost. Playing through until the end is simply a click-a-thon when the end result has been decided many turns prior.

 

[kenken244]

i realy find that unfun i think it should be changed, possibly by adding more rubber band effects

 

[MagisterCultuum]

I think that is one of the man reasons that questa and other events are being added in BtS.

 

[Bill Bisco]

Could the 2 people above me elaborate? Also a general question to everybody. If the endgame is so boring, why do we have an endgame? Why all these upper techs that are meaningless for a real game eh?

 

[kenken244]

mostly because it is very easy to win in the early game and since once you start winning you will keep on winning and vise versa so by the endgame you already know who is going to win so you just have to wrap it all up.

 

[xAlephx]

Could the 2 people above me elaborate? Also a general question to everybody. If the endgame is so boring, why do we have an endgame? Why all these upper techs that are meaningless for a real game eh?

Ah, but a man's reach must exceed his grasp, else what's a heaven for?