An Idea about Wonder Limts

[MalvolioMagnus]

An Idea about Wonder Limits:

One of the main things that I found to be annoying in RoM is the Wonder Limit count. I always felt as though, even a small Civ should be able to build as many Wonders as were possible. I thought that the size of a civilization should not prohibit said civilization from building more and more glorious things.

I still think that the size of a civilization should not prohibit it from completing Wonders. I also do not think that it is fair for small, isolated civilizations to be able to build all of the Wonders as if they were in the thick of it. So, here is my idea for future rules:

Instead of a "Per-city maximum", rather, there should be a per-city-allowable count. That is to say: "If you have two cities, you may build two wonders" (or two per city or, whatever it is). If you want to build them in the same city= fine.

This might keep the isolated civs from just spamming Wonders. If it could be creatively encoded, it might even cause the AI to expand even more efficiently. And, while yes, this idea does demand expansion, even on the Player's part, I still believe that this idea could/would be better than some arbitrary limit per city. This all hinges on the AI understanding it, though.

Long story short, perhaps I contradict myself. I think that all civs should have access to Wonders yet, it seems to me that isolated civs tend to steal from the rest. Furthermore, the arbitrary limit of four per city (or six), seems just that: Arbitrary. Perhaps, if there was a per-city wonder limit in place, things would be different?

Please, discuss
Sincerely, MM

P.S.

For example: In previous versions of Genghis Kai's Giant Earth Map, Edmond Barton of Australia would be down-under on his fine Australian Continent, building Stonehenge, then the Sphinx, then the Oracle etc...

Meanwhile, I'm over in Europe contending with the French, the Spaniards and the Germans, all the while worrying about Caesar and the English! Let's not forget the Vikings either...

Heh, I'm ranting now. (Yes, I lost that game) I apologize if I offended anyone but, I'm just trying to illustrate a point here: that maybe instead of a per-city maximum, we should be using a maximum that involves number of cities. Or, maybe a population ratio? Something other than a 4 or a 6 or some number per city?

Anyway, that's my opinion. Let me know what you think.

 

[Crusis]

You can edit the number of wonders per city yourself, I forget the file you need to edit, though. I changed mine to 12, as I don't see any reason to limit a city at all for realism, but I do see the need to stop a supercity from building 60 wonders for game reasons. Really, the number is arbitrary, just pick what you want if someone tosses up which file it was that we need to edit.

I think NYC, however, would be upset if you told them they couldn't rebuild the WTC site because they already have the Brooklyn Bridge, Central Park, Wall Street, and the NYC Subway system.

 

[civ_king]

You can edit the number of wonders per city yourself, I forget the file you need to edit, though. I changed mine to 12, as I don't see any reason to limit a city at all for realism, but I do see the need to stop a supercity from building 60 wonders for game reasons. Really, the number is arbitrary, just pick what you want if someone tosses up which file it was that we need to edit.

I think NYC, however, would be upset if you told them they couldn't rebuild the WTC site because they already have the Brooklyn Bridge, Central Park, Wall Street, and the NYC Subway system.

In the Rise of Mankind folder open /Assets/XML/GlobalDefines.xml with a text editor. Search for MAX_WORLD_WONDERS_PER_CITY and change accordingly (-1 for unlimited). The next two variables control Team and National Wonders respectively.

 

[zappara]

If it was possible I have liked if Civ 4 had era specific wonder limits.

The reason why this limit was added was that I wanted the wonders to spread out to different cities more as historically all the "wonder" sites aren't in the same cities.

 

[Crusis]

If it was possible I have liked if Civ 4 had era specific wonder limits.

The reason why this limit was added was that I wanted the wonders to spread out to different cities more as historically all the "wonder" sites aren't in the same cities.

Very good point, and a very valid game reason. I think 4 is a small number, though. Too bad you can't do something like charge a 'maintenance' fee for wonders in hammers that would make owning them actually reduce the ability of a city to build another. That would create an awesome tradeoff decision on whether the benefits of the wonder outweigh the loss in production.

 

[civ_king]

Very good point, and a very valid game reason. I think 4 is a small number, though. Too bad you can't do something like charge a 'maintenance' fee for wonders in hammers that would make owning them actually reduce the ability of a city to build another. That would create an awesome tradeoff decision on whether the benefits of the wonder outweigh the loss in production.

you could make them increase the maintenance of the city by 20% for each, that would get expensive because to build a wonder the city would be big which means maintenance costs

 

[Crusis]

Actually, now that I think about it, there are wonders that add a percentage of hammers to a city, so it probably would be completely possible to add a -x number of hammers or -x% of hammers to any wonder, and even vary them by wonder. It would be a lot more expensive, for example, to maintain the pyramids and the canals they currently provide than it would to maintain say, the Oracle which gives you a one time benefit and really was just a small complex where people opened their fortune cookies.

I'm not a programmer in any sense of the word, however, so I really am just guessing and tossing out ideas like anyone else. Zappara is the one who will filter out the chaff and I'm pretty sure I'll get filtered.

 

[Afforess]

you could make them increase the maintenance of the city by 20% for each, that would get expensive because to build a wonder the city would be big which means maintenance costs

I'm fairly confident that they AI doesn't factor city maintenance into its decisions. So this would be kind of an exploit. Plus, the maintenance cost would make wonders a lot less valuable, so you would have to lower the hammer cost for them too.

 

[Crusis]

I'm fairly confident that they AI doesn't factor city maintenance into its decisions. So this would be kind of an exploit. Plus, the maintenance cost would make wonders a lot less valuable, so you would have to lower the hammer cost for them too.

Really? Then how does the AI get all that gold? It seems to me that it should factor in the cost of buildings just like I have to do, otherwise the game is exploiting the other way.

 

[Afforess]

Really? Then how does the AI get all that gold?

Don't forget that the AI is handicapped. They earn more gold by default, to make up for their stupid decisions.

 

[Govalon]

Can I somehow remove wonder limit from my current game or do I have to start over?
I wan't to play with only few cities and still get many wonders but I have already played many hours in my current save so I wouldn't wan't it all go to waste.

 

[Afforess]

Can I somehow remove wonder limit from my current game or do I have to start over?
I wan't to play with only few cities and still get many wonders but I have already played many hours in my current save so I wouldn't wan't it all go to waste.

You can remove it via editing the global defines. It shouldn't break your save.

But it's easier to play A New Dawn, I added an "Unlimited Wonders" game option when setting up a map.

 

[szemek77]

Can I somehow remove wonder limit from my current game or do I have to start over?
I wan't to play with only few cities and still get many wonders but I have already played many hours in my current save so I wouldn't wan't it all go to waste.

I personally think that wonder limit (no matter if it is 4, 5 or 6) is very smart restriction and it should be definetely kept. It prevents the possibility of creating a not balanced hyper city, which would eventually grab 80 percent of world wonders.

As Afforess mentioned, ND has an option to turn it off, so the discussion is just academic. However I strongly recommend not to use that option.

 

[civ_king]

the only 4 per era or the 6 per working wonders (if it was obsoleted you can build another)

 

[szemek77]

the only 4 per era or the 6 per working wonders (if it was obsoleted you can build another)

Even if they become obsolete, they still count for GP birth rate and culture, right?

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

Even if they become obsolete, they still count for GP birth rate and culture, right?

Yes they do.

 

[civ_king]

Even if they become obsolete, they still count for GP birth rate and culture, right?

yes but some none wonder buildings give GP points and most give culture so...

 

[generalstaff]

4 World Wonders per city is fine if you play Rise of Mankind on a Huge map, which is what the mod is intended to be played on. Many people play it on smaller maps due to computer limitations, which causes issues like this.

In short, leave the Wonder Limit alone Zap.

 

[Afforess]

4 World Wonders per city is fine if you play Rise of Mankind on a Huge map, which is what the mod is intended to be played on. Many people play it on smaller maps due to computer limitations, which causes issues like this.

In short, leave the Wonder Limit alone Zap.

Really, why is anyone even complaining anymore? It's simple to change it personally, and I even added a game option for the really lazy people. This issue is moot.

Generalstaff is right, leave things alone.