An idea for a more fluid and immersive eureka/research/civics system

[chillbaka1]

I really like what they've done with the eureka system, it really adds another layer of strategy and makes playing on harder difficulties more fun. After playing a couple of games (about 100 hours) I got started on an idea and have been thinking about it in the last couple of days. Im not even sure its possible to mod in, but it would be an epic expansion.

In the descriptions of eureka moments, it says something along the lines of "your people have been working on x, which gave them an idea for y." A great mechanic in that mimics the way things get invented in real life and adds some depth to the game, but not an extraordinary one. Its great your first couple games and it was immersive but it eventually becomes just another generic strategy path.

First of all, the tech and civics trees need to be completely redone, at least up until the medieval period. I'm not sure exactly what the paths would be but it might be something like sailing, construction, food, weaponry, economy, faith, government, social issues, and possibly more. These can be mixed and matched but are influenced by your surroundings and what you do, similar to the current eureka mechanic but also very different. Instead of doing meaningless tasks to get a sudden 50% boost it should be much more gradual, accumulation of bonus percentage or points, similar to great people points. It would really mimic actual history and be much more immersive.
Here's a historical example, followed by how I see it playing out in civ. Viking villages in history were almost all on the coast, they relied on the sea for everything, which prompted them to advance in that area. They built ships that wouldn't be rivaled in their ocean crossing abilities combined with their shallow draft to travel up river for centuries. They were the first to discover the new world due to their navigation skills, and established complex trade routes across a significant part of the globe. But they are not known for their civil engineering abilities like the romans, or their writings and government like greece, ect. Now here's how that would play out in civ. You found your first 2-3 cities on the coast, get most of your food from fish, do your exploring by sea, and trade by sea. Your research efforts are going to go mostly all too the sailing category, while having almost none in the category of mining/farming or construction. After some time, your fishermen figure out that using nets is much more efficient than fishing rods, so you now get +1 food from coastal tiles. Your shipbuilders have built so many ships that they now know how to make them more efficiently, -30% production of ships.

Its obviously not a completely developed idea, but id like to know what you guys think.

 

[MaximusPlatypus]

I like it. Rather than get 50% boosts for doing menial things that you probably do anyway, unlock certain bonuses via combination of techs/civics/improvements.

The situation you describe could be something like "Maritime Society Unlocked: Your knowledge of seafaring innovations, in combination with 6 fishing boats, has earned your people 30% bonus to Shipyard production"

 

[CaiusDrewart]

I do like the idea of a more gradual Eureka system, as opposed to these all-or-nothing 50% boosts we now have.

 

[TomKQT]

So, if I understand it correctly, the tech tree (or at least individual techs) would be marked by their general "field" (sailing, weaponry etc.) and you would get gradual bonuses to research speed of techs in a particular field as you "use" knowledge from that field, for example to speed weaponry you would train military units and fight enemies; for sailing you would build ships, explore oceans, fight on see etc.?
That sounds quite good and interesting, but maybe it would be hard to balance. It could potentially lead to grind ...
But it IMHO extremely realistic. If you look back and realise how greatly we advanced in weaponry and flying during the 2 world wars - this would have been much much much slower if the wars didn't happen.

Btw, what I quite like in general is the idea of separate branches with the ability to advance in some of them much more than in others - exactly as you mentioned for example the Vikings. Similarly - why should a civ located far from ocean have any deep knowledge about sailing (other than much less challenging river boat). CivV was quite "bad" in this concern and sooner or later, you had to research every single technology. I'm not familiar with the Civ6 tech tree so much yet, but it seems to be quite unrealistic in this, allowing you to do staff like spaceships powered probably by steam engines, or I also think that metal casting is not required for some techs that obviously need quite good knowledge of metal processing.

 

[MaximusPlatypus]

One example I can think of is the Eureka for Square rigging which is "kill a unit with a musketman" which makes no sense.
You could even have something like war weariness which would lead to innovations in the entertainment district. Presumably the populace would clamor for more diversion when suffering such a condition. Successful spy missions could also grant a small buff based upon however the target civ was advanced in. Counterspy missions which captured an enemy spy could allow one to exchange the spy for boosts or technology the other civ has, but your civ lacks.

 

[ilker]

I think if you can boost a technology only while you are researching them (or at least in the same era or you can only achieve boosts if you are a state that you can research them) could make the objectives more restrictive.

 

[Beorhtric]

A little confused.. are you talking about boosts based upon game activity - e.g. if you build 10 fishing boats you gain +1 food from sea resources bonus

Or that researching a number of "sailing" techs gets you the bonus?

As i see it the latter just ends up as "this tech gives you this bonus" (like Fertiliser in CiV gave your farms a boost in food production)

So, if I understand it correctly, the tech tree (or at least individual techs) would be marked by their general "field" (sailing, weaponry etc.) and you would get gradual bonuses to research speed of techs in a particular field as you "use" knowledge from that field, for example to speed weaponry you would train military units and fight enemies; for sailing you would build ships, explore oceans, fight on see etc.?
That sounds quite good and interesting, but maybe it would be hard to balance. It could potentially lead to grind ...

This kind of thing is an idea I like, I'd much rather have a "boost to science output when researching this tech" system rather than the flat "have half the tech researched for you"

The boosts could be small(ish) and stackable up to a certain amount - one example being "Sailing" which could be a "25% science boost per city on the coast - maximum 2" or "Banking" "5% science boost for each Market - maximum 6. +2% science boost for each Trade Route that produces gold- maximum 10"

 

[chillbaka1]

So, if I understand it correctly, the tech tree (or at least individual techs) would be marked by their general "field" (sailing, weaponry etc.) and you would get gradual bonuses to research speed of techs in a particular field as you "use" knowledge from that field, for example to speed weaponry you would train military units and fight enemies; for sailing you would build ships, explore oceans, fight on see etc.?
That sounds quite good and interesting, but maybe it would be hard to balance. It could potentially lead to grind ...
But it IMHO extremely realistic. If you look back and realise how greatly we advanced in weaponry and flying during the 2 world wars - this would have been much much much slower if the wars didn't happen.

Btw, what I quite like in general is the idea of separate branches with the ability to advance in some of them much more than in others - exactly as you mentioned for example the Vikings. Similarly - why should a civ located far from ocean have any deep knowledge about sailing (other than much less challenging river boat). CivV was quite "bad" in this concern and sooner or later, you had to research every single technology. I'm not familiar with the Civ6 tech tree so much yet, but it seems to be quite unrealistic in this, allowing you to do staff like spaceships powered probably by steam engines, or I also think that metal casting is not required for some techs that obviously need quite good knowledge of metal processing.

Yes exactly. And after some further thinking about it I had another possible idea/solution. "Science" would still be science, and the whole campus/university system wouldn't change but would instead be doing research on a completely separate branch, similar to how history actually was. Obviously there are going to be holes in my argument and balance issues but bear with me. There would be a science branch that would include techs like astrology, celestial navigation, mathematics ect. Things that were discovered by great scientists throughout history in places like campuses and universities, but Aristotle, Galileo and others had nothing to do with the techs like irrigation, apprenticeship, and banking. These things were developed in history through innovations comming from generations of experience, not scientists.

On the subject of grinding, I was thinking the same thing. After some thought, i feel like it would actually be much less of a grind than how it is currently. If you want to advance your knowledge in the field of irrigation, then move off of the coast and start a city with surrounding grasslands and build farms. Want to focus on weaponry and war? Fight more barbarians or start a war. Using some other historical examples, who has ever heard of the great mongolian navy under Genjis Khan? Nobody. Or the Famous horsemen of the Aztecs? Civilizations are formed by their surroundings, which would be an incredibly immersive change to the game. Do you want to be like the romans and be fairly well rounded in all areas? Then place your cities in a variety of different locations. Be a naval superpower like the Vikings and England, then settle on the coast. This would also allow trading techs to come back into the game, but rather trading knowledge gained through experience. Trade with the mongols as the aztecs to learn about horseback riding, or trade with the romans to learn about civil engineering. I know its a long shot, but it would be anawesome alternate history simulation.

 

[chillbaka1]

One example I can think of is the Eureka for Square rigging which is "kill a unit with a musketman" which makes no sense.
You could even have something like war weariness which would lead to innovations in the entertainment district. Presumably the populace would clamor for more diversion when suffering such a condition. Successful spy missions could also grant a small buff based upon however the target civ was advanced in. Counterspy missions which captured an enemy spy could allow one to exchange the spy for boosts or technology the other civ has, but your civ lacks.

Wow, never even thought of that one but that's an awesome idea, its exactly how things actually happened in history too (rome and the colosseum). There's literally endless possibilities and all the devs would have to do is implement the base system and people could go crazy with mods.