An interesting strategic dilemma

[VincentThe88]

I've currently invested 5 1/2 hours into a large terra map game at normal speed and my goal is to conquer the world. Of the 8 original other civ's out there, I've destroyed 3.

Here's the breakdown of where things stand:

The year is 1755AD. I, as Julius Caesar of the Romans, am the dominant world power. I have just ended my third war against the Ottomans with his capitulation to me with 4 cities. I was tempted to destroy him, but after further thought, I decided that even his 4 cities would be a nice little buffer zone.

With Mehmed II as my vassal, there are essentially 2 other world powers remaining:

Tokugawa of the Japanese empire with the 2nd strongest military in the world.

Shaka of the Zulu with Napolean of the French, and Gandhi of the Indians, as his vassals, representing the 3rd, 4th, and 6th ranked militaries in the world respectively.

Mehmed is my buffer to the Zulu/French to the southeast, I have a direct border to the Japenese east, and Gandhi's empire I've left him consists of a half dozen cities hugging the northern coast, bordering only myself and the Japanese.

The world is at peace. And therein lies my dilemma. If I attack the Japanese, I put myself in a situation where the Indians will extend across my north border and the Zulu/French across my south. If I attack the Indians, that brings the Zulu/French into war against me.

However, I am on friendly relations with Shaka. As our last act of cooperation before declaring war on the Indians, I could give Shaka Replacable Parts and Steel to send him and his vassals to war against Japan, thus pitting my only enemies against each other. However, this would bring the Zulu close to my own level of military technology, and as I have no direct border with him, that gives him time in which he could make use of it before I could be fighting him directly.

Now, is it worth parting with these 2 technologies to the 2nd strongest world power so they'll initiate war against the 2nd strongest military? Or do I take the dangerous attempt to strike straight for the Zulu, to weaken them enough that the French and Indians may break their vassalage to Shaka, my friend, dividing the world? I am the largest nation with the largest military, however I enjoy roleplaying situations, and I find this a beautiful example of the strategic depth Civ IV allows.

So, any input or reaction from the strategists out there?

 

[Ecofarm]

You might be able to stockpile gold at low research slider for a few turns to Replacable Parts + pay Shaka into war, instead of steel. Or start by getting France to quit trading with him first and get them out of any mutually appreciated civics/religions. Definately bribe rivals into/towards war with each other whenever possible. If you leave Ghandi alone, his tundra will never make it to space before you have domination conditions. Hitting him last if you want conquest, however, will be a pain as he will spam anti-aircraft units. 3/8 civs defeated at 1755ad does not sound conquestable. Go for domination.

As Rome, you should have destroyed 1 civ before cats and 2 civs when you got cats - you need to spread that Praetorian love far and wide, even if you raze everything except the capitals. Aren't Terra Maps huge by default? Augustus' creative would have helped on a huge map.

 

[anima36]

i have a similar situation on an earth 18 civs map although i am not winning, its in the early 1600s and three civs are out and about 8 can be mopped up with three or four tanks leaving 7 powerful civs of which i sit third with the tech lead. i am just about to get modern armour at the expense of flight and a couple of other techs but i do have mech infantry, i love the huge maps as you get tech so early. the big dilema is whether to start a world war or not and if so do i join the weaker side, if i do it will be a very even fight if not the top world power, china, will get annihalated but will the fight weaken the russians enough for me to take some of their big cities which are very close to my homeland in europe me being france.

 

[Kietharr]

World scenario is very fun, already conquered it as the Arabs and the Greeks. But at any rate, it's always better for someone else's troops to be dieing than yours. You COULD have shaka declare war on toku, wait a few turns then backstab him, slashing and burning as much of his and his vassal's territory as you can, razeing cities to let your units move faster. If you cripple shaka, his vassals will break off, and with any luck they and shaka will do lots of damage to Japan, leaving you four massively weakened enemies to deal with rather than two strong ones.

 

[VincentThe88]

i have a similar situation on an earth 18 civs map although i am not winning, its in the early 1600s and three civs are out and about 8 can be mopped up with three or four tanks leaving 7 powerful civs of which i sit third with the tech lead. i am just about to get modern armour at the expense of flight and a couple of other techs but i do have mech infantry, i love the huge maps as you get tech so early. the big dilema is whether to start a world war or not and if so do i join the weaker side, if i do it will be a very even fight if not the top world power, china, will get annihalated but will the fight weaken the russians enough for me to take some of their big cities which are very close to my homeland in europe me being france.

Quite an interesting position you sit in there. By the sounds of it, you'd better side with the weaker side. If you don't, the stronger ones with your help will only get stronger. Joining the weaker, hopefully you could even the field if you can manage to capture a few of the big Russian cities. Try to bribe the other nations against each other, getting as much of a cross conflict as possible, sending as many nations as you can bribe against the most powerful nations as possible.

World scenario is very fun, already conquered it as the Arabs and the Greeks. But at any rate, it's always better for someone else's troops to be dieing than yours. You COULD have shaka declare war on toku, wait a few turns then backstab him, slashing and burning as much of his and his vassal's territory as you can, razeing cities to let your units move faster. If you cripple shaka, his vassals will break off, and with any luck they and shaka will do lots of damage to Japan, leaving you four massively weakened enemies to deal with rather than two strong ones.

Yeah, that does seem to be a rather prime option. I'll see if I can avoid giving up secrets of steel when I bring the Zulu to war against Japan. With the Zulu and French needing to go through either my Ottoman vassals or the Japanese to get into my empire, I'll send my army north into India first. They are weak, and with their destruction, I will have focused the war on a single front to the south east. I can then sweep into Zulu lands and cripple them, hopefully enough to break the French from their vassalage to Shaka. All nations will distrust each other enough that they will be isolated nations for me to conquer as I wish.

 

[VincentThe88]

After years of unsuccessfully attempting to replace Steel with gold (up to 6000), Shaka got Replacable parts himself, so the new options for bribes were Rifling, Steam Power, and Steel. After contemplation, I tried (and succeeded) with an offer of Steam Power, sending Zulu, French, and Indians to war against Japan as my armies line the Indian bordres.

 

[50_dollar_bag]

I obviously got to this to late but I was going to say that Shaka loves to go for Rifling and replaceable parts is a prereq.

As for stirring up wars, I love it. I'll quite willingly give up a couple of techs. But I always make sure I bribe Civ A to go to war with Civ B's vassal that way you don't get the "You brought a war ally in against us" demerit from the master civ and the vassal is powerless to start a war. And you're better off propping up the weaker civ with the techs.

 

[VincentThe88]

I obviously got to this to late but I was going to say that Shaka loves to go for Rifling and replaceable parts is a prereq.

As for stirring up wars, I love it. I'll quite willingly give up a couple of techs. But I always make sure I bribe Civ A to go to war with Civ B's vassal that way you don't get the "You brought a war ally in against us" demerit from the master civ and the vassal is powerless to start a war. And you're better off propping up the weaker civ with the techs.

Ha, well the war still rages. I sent Shaka and his vassals against Tokugawa, and several turns later I invaded Gandhi. Within a couple turns I had taken all but 2 cities which were closely bordered by Japan. By the time I had moved my army to the south front, the last 2 Indian cities fell to Japan. Since then it has been a struggling push into Zulu territory. At 1852AD I've razed 3 of their cities, and the Japanese have razed a couple French cities, but recently signed peace. The initial surge was a slow ordeal with many losses, but with time I've gradually gained the upper hand. But now my production is being slowed severely by war weariness. Now I can 1) force the Zulu into capitulation. If he will not capitulate, I can 2) continue the war until he is destroyed. Or, 3) end the war now, regather my forces, and A) continue against Shaka or B) focus my military efforts on weakening and overtaking Japan, which seems to have become a solid and formidable empire in the aftermath of the World War.

 

[Ecofarm]

6000 gold is alot. How did you get that and how did you spend it?

Given time to recover, the AI bonuses will help Shaka. With capitulation you would be then working on endwar. How are you in military techs compared to the Japanese?

 

[cabert]

In this situation, sneding shaka to war is making him even stronger.
I would have bribed toku vs him and dogpiled (or attacked the zulus, then bribed toku for a lot less).
I wouldn't have attacked the vassals, only zulu cities (raze!). After a while, india and france could have broken free = available to be your vassals.
Too late ayway.

 

[VincentThe88]

6000 gold is alot. How did you get that and how did you spend it?

Given time to recover, the AI bonuses will help Shaka. With capitulation you would be then working on endwar. How are you in military techs compared to the Japanese?

Japan has Rifleman as their most advanced unit, and I think they can build cavalry but only recently acquired horses. They do not have steel yet. I have just started building Artillery, and have the majority of my army comprised of a mix of Rifleman, Grenadier, Cannon, and Cavalry. Technologically I have an advantage, but they are having a long period of peace now while I continue to fight, and their military strength is just short of my own and growing.

In this situation, sneding shaka to war is making him even stronger.
I would have bribed toku vs him and dogpiled (or attacked the zulus, then bribed toku for a lot less).
I wouldn't have attacked the vassals, only zulu cities (raze!). After a while, india and france could have broken free = available to be your vassals.
Too late ayway.

Ah, were it possible to send Japan to war against Shaka, that would have been my course of action. But at that point I had already fought two wars against Japan, and they wouldn't make any deals with me. Shaka was the only one available even to negotiate deals at all, the only nation I hadn't warred with prior.

Yeah, I left France alone myself, but I wanted the Indian cities for my own empire. I captured 5 of them, and they have been a nice little addition, and weren't too hard to come by. France has yet to break free, but they are close, and by this time, they are a non-issue. With the Japanese fighting them, they are down to 2 cities.

Zulu is down to 5 cities now, and they are falling to me very quickly. Their military fought toe-to-toe with mine, but in the end I was able to bring more troops to the front than they were able rally against me. Their standing army has now been crushed, and I simply blaze through razing one city after another.

 

[VincentThe88]

In 1862AD France broke free from their vassalage to the Zulu. I then capitulated Zulu, and they promptly declared war on their former Vassals, the French (now as my vassal). Shortly thereafter I forced the French to capitulate, leaving me now with only one enemy: the Japanese.

My armies rest, and my cities build jails to ward off future war weariness, and I must now strategize where I want to invade. The south of Japan is bordered by France and the Ottomans, but it also would serve as the straightest route to their core cities for an invasion. Northern Japan borders my own lands, but are less vital than those to the south. But if they choose to attack me directly, that's where they'll do it.

 

[VincentThe88]

1886AD The invasion of Japan begins. The final war is under way.

 

[VincentThe88]

Victory achieved. Japan offered capitulation in 1908AD. The vassals combined took about four minor cities, and I captured about 8 cities, including their capitol. Curious enough, the war against Japan was shorter and easier than that against the Zulu.

Upon forcing Japan into capitulation, it humored me to notice they were the only ones to build a city off of the continent. Was it on the soil of the virgin continent? No, it was a tundra infested site at the south pole. I'm glad I got capitulation instead of conquering the continent and then needing to send search parties across the oceans until many years later I would have found that little icebox.

In retrospect:

The advice to attack Shaka directly would have been the best to have taken, instead of bothering with the Indians. The Japanese would have probably destroyed the Indians while I had the jump on Shaka, instead he was ready for me when I had finished with the Indians.

Though late, cabert seems to have it figured right.

Also, a late answer, but Ecofarm: I got the 6000 gold from my various conquests, then several turns at 0% research in hopes of bribing Shaka with cash in place of Steel (which still wasn't enough for him). I spent it as I was able to on modernizing my army as upgrades were available.. From Praetorians and Macemen to gunpowder units, from Cannons to Artillery, and finally Cavalry to Gunships for the final war against Japan.

 

[Ecofarm]

"Their standing army has now been crushed, and I simply blaze through razing one city after another."

Oh yea, that's what I'm talkin about.