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Ancient/Pre-Steam Unit Graphics

Discussion in 'Civ2 - Scenario League' started by Arthedain, Jan 24, 2011.

  1. Torbk

    Torbk Chieftain

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    Sorry Palaiologos, but I can't seem to find a single valid argument in your previous post. Only name-calling, superficial insults and an attempt at logic. One do not expect spearmen to throw javelins at all, but to stand and move in a pointy formation with long wooden shafts presented forward. Also the Roman army of the 4th, 5th and 6th century AD was not the roman army of BC 100 to AD 150. For each century after its discipline and uniformity slowly worsened, did it not?

    As for no mention of Kontos and infantry with Arrian...
    http://www.fectio.org.uk/articles/arrian.htm
    I thought you said nowhere is there a mention of?

    And no matter the dispute over historical accuracy, Fairline remains one of the best, if not THE best, unit artist. So bottom line, who cares. His units are excellent. If you really disagree with their armaments, why not modify them yourself. Changing those spears to swords, or simply shortening them, is very easy to do. Even I, a quite limited artist, knows how to draw a sword (pun intended).

    And sorry if anything in the above writing is in any way offensive to any person or individual. I let out some metaphorical steam.
     
  2. Fairline

    Fairline Chieftain

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    Torbk, I was just about to post that link - thanks for that!

    As for Pericles', ah, 'sense of humour', don't be overly concerned. We love each other really. In a strictly platonic sense of course ;)
     
  3. McMonkey

    McMonkey ----Evertonian---- SLeague Staff

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  4. Palaiologos2

    Palaiologos2 Chieftain

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    I said specifically that there is no mention of the kontos being issued REGULARY. That means on a regular basis. I never doubted the fact of the kontos being used against those Alans. Quite on the contrary, its mention by Arrian indicates that its use by the infantry was not the norm. Have you actually read the link you posted? There is a whole debate there about what Arrian meant, since apparently it was unusual for infantry to wield kontos.
    As for the Roman army, after the Diocletian reforms the infantry remained essentially unchanged until the thematic system. The deterioration of discipline and morale(if indeed any took place) did not change their armament or their battle tactics.
    As for the "One do not expect spearmen to throw javelins at all, but to stand and move in a pointy formation with long wooden shafts presented forward." argument, i'm sorry but quite frankly its naive at best. One would surely expect more from professional legionaires(Strassbourg comes to mind).
    Even the late Roman army units were spearmen(hasta)-i.e before the diocletean reforms- thats is before the aforementioned discipline deterioration.
    The late(diocletean) roman army was issued a lancea light spear(which could itself be thrown), a spatha broad sword, plumbatarii darts and a spiculum javelin(the evolution of the pilum).

    And last but not least their formations. The cuneus adopted by the Germans, the testudo/foulkon(the infamous turtle) formation, both of which were in use by the 4th century AD are impossible to be achieved by pikemen.


    And what does Fairline's artistic talent have to do with anything? I never doubted it. And since when does one get immunity from historical errors if he is a gifted artist?

    I'd recommend reading Osprey's "Late Roman infantry man 236AD-565AD" for info on Roman arms and tactics.
     
  5. Fairline

    Fairline Chieftain

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    Must... not.... feed....troll. Dammit, I'll bite

    You were going great guns up to this point. You are basing your knowledge of late Roman arms on MacDowall who is strictly an amateur historian; there are a number of inaccuracies and inconsistencies in this book, not the least of which is using the Stategikon as a source for 3rd and 4th C arms and tactics and claiming that all late legionaries were armed principally with the lancea. :lol:

    The lanciarii in the 3rd C are attested to being a distinct troop type (presumably lighter armed and armoured) to the ordinary legionary (ref gravestone of Aurelius Mucianus, a lanciarii from Legio II Parthica who is depicted carrying 5 light lancea as throwing weapons).

    Arrian, Josephus and (the rather more reliable than MacDowall) Duncan Head all attest to the use of light lancea-armed troops in the rear ranks of a formation throwing their javelins over the heads of the thrusting-spear-armed front ranks. A distinct unit type emerged in the late Empire termed lanciarii, who may have been exclusively armed with the lancea, as distinct from the standard mixed lancea/'kontos' formation. Similarly, units of lancea-armed cavalry are documented in the 3rd C., distinct from the standard heavier thrusting spear cavalry.

    You need to widen your 'research' sources Pericles ;)
     
  6. Palaiologos2

    Palaiologos2 Chieftain

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    Ok point taken on that one.
    I admit that i mainly use any Osprey title as a ready easy on hands source in preference to others.
    But it was just a suggestion of a decent title to read for a general knowledge in the late Roman army. Did not imply he was the authority on the subject.
    My research sources are wider than Osprey ussually, and i generaly consider Conolly the authority on everything. Personal bias i suppose.

    Anyway Osprey has dissapointed me lately with a low quality work on the Persian cavalry.

    My own sober analysis of the late Roman army is that it was generally so flexible and adaptable that within the same infantry unit there were specialist roles for the men. And different arms.
    But i dont believe the kontos was the infantry man's primary weapon. Unless of course it was a shorter kontos than the ussual kontos.

    I suppose we should agree first what is the kontos that we are arguing about.
     
  7. Tanelorn

    Tanelorn Chieftain

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    Another debate about who has the longest stick.

    Anyway, here's a repost of some Apolyton stuff.





     

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  8. McMonkey

    McMonkey ----Evertonian---- SLeague Staff

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    :lol:

    Fabulous collection. I don't recall seeing the bottom row of units in the first image! The bottom image is not displaying.
     
  9. Tanelorn

    Tanelorn Chieftain

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    Thanks.
    That last line are the army of Vlad Tepes, he also had Cuman light horse at his disposal.
    Here's that last part again:
     

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  10. Palaiologos2

    Palaiologos2 Chieftain

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    After spending quite a few hours of my extremely limited free time and VARIOUS sources i came to the same conclusion.
    The late legions did NOT use any sort of pike as their primary weapon. It seems its only a matter of words. Some call their spear/javelin armament lancea and spiculum. Others call it heavy pillum and light pillum etc. In any case a thrusting spear and a javelin.
    But all attest it was not anything longer than 2m.
    As for the lanciarii it seems they took up more or less the role of velites of the Republican army-sometimes going in front of the ranks to throw their lanceas/pilla/spiculums.

    From Curt: Removed abusive insult, even if it is meant in jest.
     
  11. Fairline

    Fairline Chieftain

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    Its time to get a job Pericles.
     
  12. Arthedain

    Arthedain - Celestial Being - SLeague Staff

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    That's what I did and suddenly I had so little spare time.. :mischief:
     
  13. Palaiologos2

    Palaiologos2 Chieftain

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    I find that unemployment suits me fine. Its only been 50 days since i've quit my job and i feel i have taken the hang of this.
     
  14. Tanelorn

    Tanelorn Chieftain

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    Οχι κι εσυ ρε φιλε.
    Σκατοζωη.

    Anyway, here's a sample of last weekends work.

     

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  15. Hans99

    Hans99 Chieftain

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    any definition for above units ?
     
  16. Palaiologos2

    Palaiologos2 Chieftain

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    Very good.
     
  17. McMonkey

    McMonkey ----Evertonian---- SLeague Staff

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  18. keu

    keu Chieftain

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    Tanelorn, exellent units!
     
  19. CurtSibling

    CurtSibling ENEMY ACE™ SLeague Staff

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    Superb stuff, sir!
     
  20. Tanelorn

    Tanelorn Chieftain

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    Thank you guys.
    Next ones:
     

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