Another AI Cheating.... Money

[binyo66]

PTW 1.27f, huge, pangea, as many civs as possible.
First :
Greek and India occupied their own island. Greek island was very far from the main island where the rest of civs started. Those the last two civs which I was about to destroy (I'm milking the game).
Before I attacked greek, I gave his the worst position on main island. Then in 2 turns i took over his island. Then I took India island. Before I destroyed india last city, I allied with Greek and I gave him 500GPT, and then offer him to buy a tech. Where Greek got the money from 107GPT from a town that had no improvment except palace, size 2, 40% to science?

 

[Shirastro]

Maybe they have acumulated gold over the time, or are being paid by india for something.

 

[binyo66]

India was gone already. And from the spy, greek had 0 gold
Only me, and greek with City Given that I gave to him . Where the gpt coming from?
Edit : I destroyed India last city the same turn after the alliance with Greek (so I didnt have to pay 500GPT), but Greek still had to pay for tech 107GPT. The image was taken 5 turns after India was eliminated (and 15 turns after I made peace with Greek). So greek had paid 107GPT for 5 turns. There was a funny thing, Greek asked for MPP where only 2 of us in this game

 

[Turner]

He could have other treaties going with other civs paying him at least that much.

 

[binyo66]

No, the rest of the civ been eliminated. No one left except me and 1 city greek.

 

[Moonsinger]

Since I'm currently on a dialup, I don't have enough bandwide to view your huge GIF files (JPG would be nice!), my post is based strictly on what you said:

I allied with Greek and I gave him 500GPT, and then offer him to buy a tech. Where Greek got the money from 107GPT from a town that had no improvment except palace, size 2, 40% to science?

Let me see, you said that you gave him 500 gpt and then charged him 107 gpt for a tech. In this case, he would still have an income of 393 gpt (500 gpt - 107 gpt = 393 gpt).

 

[binyo66]

Well moonsinger, I got the idea from u (and as u can see, I'm very rich ), its especially working fine in pangea with as many civs. True, I gave him 500GPT for alliances, but on the same turn I eliminated India, so alliance was off (rep hit, np), so I dont have to pay 500GPT the next turn. The image shows all deals between greek and me (aztec)
- 5 turn peace treaty left between greek-aztec(me)
- 15 turns 107GPT greek had to pay for tech.
There is no other treaty between greek and me or any others (since, they were gone already).
Usually AI will declared war, in happen so many times using the trics that I learnt from u. But after 5 turns, I was wondering why Greek hadnt declared war, since I believe he was bankrupt. He had only 1 hoplite in the city and no other building except palace. So, Greek can disband 1 hoplite only for money, but it wont have covered 107GPT.
BTW somehow if I save image as JPG will give more bytes rather than GIF (with lower resolution), and I used to have problem attaching JPG (except I reduce it to 800x600) to the post

Edit : 16 turns not 15 turns.
I just realized that AI knew he was being tricked. The comment was "... u dont try any swinging Aztec merchant's on me "

 

[Turner]

Why don't you post a save so we can peek at it? That would be very helpful.

 

[binyo66]

I will do it tomorow. I'm at office, and the game is on my home laptop. I might not have the save where I captured the images. But I think it still have some turns left for Greek to pay GPT.
One thing, I was curious, ussually after we research all techs, the whole map world be revealed. But as u can see here, the bottom world hasnt been revealed yet (and I wont bother to reveal it. MM is already taking time)

 

[Catt]

If the AI (or the human) doesn't have the income to pay existing gold-per-turn deals, its treasury stays at 0 but the trading partner still receives the gold. In other words, it is a way to "create" gold in the game -- you could do the same by entering into a gpt deal and then abandoning all but one city; each of your units and improvements will be sold off until nothing remains, but the trading partner will still receive the gpt as if the money was available. If the AI didn't enjoy free unit support, it wouldn't be able to have even one lonely hoplite - it would have been disbanded due to the deficit the Greeks are running.

Rather than an AI cheat, this is a human cheat -- you're getting a phantom 107 gpt that shouldn't exist in the game.

(I'm milking the game).

How are you milking the game? Surely you've already won via domination?

 

[binyo66]

I disable all win thing except spaceship. Most of the time AI just declared war. So, this is the first time AI didnt declare war. U r probably right. I got 18000+ on scoring, expecting 20000+ by the time I launching spaceship (btw, its deity). Milking is very boring. But because when I started playing this game I was out of town for 10 days with no internet, I just played to kill time

 

[binyo66]

Rather than an AI cheat, this is a human cheat -- you're getting a phantom 107 gpt that shouldn't exist in the game.

If this is a cheat, r w allowed to use the trick. In the same game, for modern tech, mongol paid 1400GPT (and he should have been bankrupt), in the same time, I had MPP with him (to avoid declaration of war from mongol), and we were at war against scandinavia (mongol's north neighbourh, and my west neighbour)

 

[Catt]

If this is a cheat, r w allowed to use the trick.

Yes, it is possible to exploit it when you are the civ paying the gpt instead of receiving it. For example, as a nonreligious civ, as you prepare for a government switch, you can set your science slider to 0 to enable greater income, spend all your gold and use gpt to buy tech from an AI, and go into anarchy. During anarchy you receive no income (except as part of deals from other civs), you pay no maintenance on city improvements and no unit support -- even if your treasury is at 0 and, for example, you've committed 25 gpt to an AI, no units will be disbanded and no improvements sold. The AI continues to receive the gpt, your reputation remains intact and the deal continues, but you can coast through 8 turns of anarchy with no discernible damage to your civ (no gold lost) - if you had gold in your treasury, it would be lost each turn, but since you spent it all, you get a bit of a free pass.

 

[binyo66]

Wouw, thats an exploit that I havent used. Is it allowed in GOTM? But for my personal game, I would do.
Here is the save file. BTW, since I'm not a good deity (even, I almost never lost in the last couple emperor level games), this save has "preserved random number" off, so I can reload (I do reload many times if I play deity ). And, this is the 2nd time I played using the same 4000bc.
@catt : how come greek still has a hoplite in the picture above? I remember, I played couple turns after this save, and the hoplite gone, but been replaced with a worker!

 

[Catt]

Wouw, thats an exploit that I havent used. Is it allowed in GOTM?

Don't know (I don't play GOTM) but you should check in the GOTM forums and rules to avoid inadvertantly breaking a rule.

@catt : how come greek still has a hoplite in the picture above? I remember, I played couple turns after this save, and the hoplite gone, but been replaced with a worker!

It appears that units or city improvements are disbanded when a civ runs a deficit with no gold in the treasury only if the unit of improvement requires maintenance. In the human-anarchy example I gave, since neither units nor improvements require maintenance during anarchy, nothing is disabanded. When it is the AI running the deficit, there's a good chance that units will not require maintenance since the AI gets a lot of free unit support at the higher levels -- even though Greece is a democracy in your picture and democracy offers no inherent unit support, an AI at deity gets free unit support for each city regardless of government. You're saying the Greek AI disbanded its hoplite later in the series of turns? Not sure why that would happen, frankly.

 

[binyo66]

He disbanded the hoplite and replace with worker. Probably it supports 1 free unit only on deity democracy?