Arabia

[pineappledan]

I know that every other piece of a new civ is easier to make than the leader scene because I’ve been involved in making units, improvement models, rigging animations, and coding, but the animation, rigging, voice work, etc necessary for a separate leader is far more.

The exception is music. Depending on how elaborate the theme music gets, and civ 6’s was exceptionally elaborate to produce, that might actually be the hardest part.

 

[pineappledan]

2) Since both developers and fans are adamant that the Arabian civ be linked with Islam; Saladin as I said was devoutly Muslim, and an Arab identity is more inclusive and broader than a more exclusive and narrower Kurdish one

A Nabatean leader for Arabia would be dope tho…

 

[Bonyduck Campersang]

(By the way, Saladin doesn't make sense as a leader of a Kurdish civilization. The Ayyubid state was not Kurdish, though the dynasty was an Arabised Kurdish one, and though multi-ethnic in nature, if they have to come under a label Arabian is the best one considering Arabic was the lingua franca and language of administration (I also suggested Misr, as an example of a multi-ethnic Islamic Egyptian civ). Better choices for a leader of a Kurdish civ would be Shaikh Ubaidulla or Nasr al-Dawla)

 

[Bonyduck Campersang]

But, to the Kurds, he is one of two shining heroes of significant greatness in history.

Who's the other shining hero?

 

[Patine]

Who's the other shining hero?

Mahmud Barzanji, although, admittedly, his well-known status is absolutely dwarfed by Saladin.

 

[Patine]

A Nabatean leader for Arabia would be dope tho…

A Nabatean leader, or a Palmyran one, or one like Samsi, would likely bomb in the market, and even get very aggressively-put protests against it. Even if not intended to be, it would be called a, "deliberate insult," by a fair number.

 

[Bonyduck Campersang]

Mahmud Barzanji, although, admittedly, his well-known status is absolutely dwarfed by Saladin.

I very occasionally spend some time on a Kurdish subreddit, and his legacy isn't entirely undisputed. Besides, isn't Mahmud Barzani only important in world history insofar his efforts in establishing a Kurdish state are concerned, while Saladin was in the thick of things during the Second and Third Crusades?

 

[Patine]

I very occasionally spend some time on a Kurdish subreddit, and his legacy isn't entirely undisputed. Besides, isn't Mahmud Barzani only important in world history insofar his efforts in establishing a Kurdish state are concerned, while Saladin was in the thick of things during the Second and Third Crusades?

As I said, the impact of their legacies are not equal.

 

[Henri Christophe]

This thread is out of trail, I made it in order to us endorse Ali as possible civ leader, not to discuss about Saladin.
Of course Saladin is in the scope of Arabia, and if he appears again, he should lead Arabia and not an eventual Kurdish civ.
I don't know to much about Kurdish history, but Saladin was a more embracing with multiple nationalities includes the Arabs.

And as far I know, to you be a citizen in Arab world you just need to follow the Islamic law, I mean, it is just need a convertion to the true faith in order to you be a citizen of Arab world. It's opposite of Rome, where you need to born in to become a citizen.
And since Saladin was converted to Islam, it is all he needs to be an Arabian civ leader.

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

This thread is out of trail, I made it in order to us endorse Ali as possible civ leader, not to discuss about Saladin.

This thread I thought is about Arabia, so I don't understand why discussing Saladin is a problem? Besides, it's already been mentioned that depicting any of the Rashidun caliphates, even Ali, would probably not be good.

 

[Bonyduck Campersang]

This thread is out of trail, I made it in order to us endorse Ali as possible civ leader, not to discuss about Saladin.

Why are you be so insistent on having Ali in the game? Let me recapitulate:
1) for some Muslims, depiction of a Companion is a no-no; in fairness that would mean putting off only about a dozen people (including myself) from purchasing the game, but still
2) most Shia (in my experience , at least) tend to have a fanatical devotion to Ali; some Shia depictions of him have his face covered or obscured, any insensitive portrayal (especially if Civ7 features a cartoonish or stylised art style) could offend a lot of people
3) there are plenty of good candidates besides the Rashidun to choose from who aren't Saladin or Harun al-Rashid: Umar II, Abd al-Malik, al-Walid, al-Ma'mun, al-Mansur...

 

[Henri Christophe]

2) most Shia (in my experience , at least) tend to have a fanatical devotion to Ali; some Shia depictions of him have his face covered or obscured, any insensitive portrayal (especially if Civ7 features a cartoonish or stylised art style) could offend a lot of people

Ali representation could be replaced his face for a green globe with his name in gold inside, as that:

Umar II, Abd al-Malik, al-Walid, al-Ma'mun, al-Mansur

I will search about they.

I guess I was very excited to learn about Rashidun Caliphs at the University and concluded one of they should be a civ leader, and of they, Ali is the one who deserves the most.

1) for some Muslims, depiction of a Companion is a no-no; in fairness that would mean putting off only about a dozen people (including myself) from purchasing the game, but still

I though only Mohammed wasn't allowed to become a civ.
I don't want to be disrespectfull, I just believe Ali's side of history is very forgoten in the West, I my self just dicover about him recently at the University.

 

[Bonyduck Campersang]

I don't want to be disrespectfull, I just believe Ali's side of history is very forgoten in the West, I my self just dicover about him recently at the University.

No, I know you don't want to be disrespectful, but some people just don't want to play a video game that requires you to interact with much exalted and respected figures

 

[Evie]

I know that every other piece of a new civ is easier to make than the leader scene because I’ve been involved in making units, improvement models, rigging animations, and coding, but the animation, rigging, voice work, etc necessary for a separate leader is far more.

The exception is music. Depending on how elaborate the theme music gets, and civ 6’s was exceptionally elaborate to produce, that might actually be the hardest part.

Interesting, thanks for the clarification! Possibly then the difference is that leader creation uses specialized staff whereas more generalist staff can do the rest of civ creation - meaning the more specialized staff is more likely to have "free" time whereas the generalist staff is kote likely to be moved on to doing something else.

(Speculative, but the fact remains that Leader Pass having only new leaders is otherwise hard to explain if they are by far the hardest part to do)

 

[Patine]

And as far I know, to you be a citizen in Arab world you just need to follow the Islamic law, I mean, it is just need a convertion to the true faith in order to you be a citizen of Arab world.

The significant number of Arab Christians, and of lackluster in faith (and antagonistic, in history, to Islamic jurisprudence), of Arab Nationalism, such as Nasserism and Baathism, says otherwise to this uninformed and stereotyped comment. And, the 14 Arab-majority nations of today all have different laws on citizenship from each other - there is no standard or singular ones - and the Four Medival Arab Caliphates, like most Medieval-era nations, period, did not have a legal concept of, "citizneship," in any way as we know it, today. And, it certainly doesn't apply in reverse - that being a devout Muslim makes one automatically an Arab - if that is a tactic around Saladin, there.

 

[pineappledan]

(Speculative, but the fact remains that Leader Pass having only new leaders is otherwise hard to explain if they are by far the hardest part to do)

Like I said, the only explanation I can think of is that composing and recording new theme music is difficult enough to be prohibitive.
The prevailing speculative theory re: the leader passes was that they were being used to train junior animators and modelers in the downtime between other projects. Coordinating recording time for new theme music requires an entirely different set of skills that Firaxis was probably not inclined to tap when winding down support for a game.

This is yet another reason why I keep advocating for more unique components for each civilization instead of continuing to increase the number of civs. Unique components are comparatively trivial to design and implement, while soundtracks and leader scenes are extremely labour-intensive. You could have nearly twice as much game with only 10% more effort if they diverted to fleshing out individual civs instead of adding more.

 

[reddishrecue]

I think the Arabs could benefit with a bit of a Islamic religious background that has some sort of connection with Muhammad the prophet, peace be upon him-pbuh-, the Koran, Saladin and the crusades. Muhammad, pbuh, would be the prophet, Saladin could be the great general in contrast to the past versions of civilization which have Saladin as the leader of Arabia. Saladin did come in contact with Muhammad, pbuh, but the difference is that Muhammad, pbuh, was chosen by god to clarify the current religion that the Arabs had. The Arabs also descended from Ishmael posterity and were called Sabeans. Maybe that could be mentioned for Arabic also since the descendants and the blessings that god gave to Abraham descend to the Sabeans and the Arabians.

 

[Bonyduck Campersang]

Saladin did come in contact with Muhammad, pbuh, but the difference is that Muhammad, pbuh, was chosen by god to clarify the current religion that the Arabs had.

Saladin was born about 500 years after the Prophet. You must be mixing him up with someone else.

The Arabs also descended from Ishmael posterity and were called Sabeans. Maybe that could be mentioned for Arabic also since the descendants and the blessings that god gave to Abraham descend to the Sabeans and the Arabians.

The Sabaeans were South Arabian (modern-day Yemen) and their language is significantly different from the Arabic spoken by the Rashidun, Umayyads and Abbasids.

I'm not sure what it is that you're suggesting? Civ6 does have a reference to Islam and the Prophet Muhammad in the unique ability for Arabia.

 

[reddishrecue]

Saladin was born about 500 years after the Prophet. You must be mixing him up with someone else.


The Sabaeans were South Arabian (modern-day Yemen) and their language is significantly different from the Arabic spoken by the Rashidun, Umayyads and Abbasids.

I'm not sure what it is that you're suggesting? Civ6 does have a reference to Islam and the Prophet Muhammad in the unique ability for Arabia.

Im sorry for missing the reference to Islam in civ 6. Also, didn't Saladin sort of continued the legacy that the prophet had left over with the crusades? Even though it was 500 years later?
I was suggesting making Arabic leader a great general and the prophet as the leader but due to respect issues I take it back and say 'never mind' peace be upon him.

 

[Bonyduck Campersang]

Im sorry for missing the reference to Islam in civ 6. Also, didn't Saladin sort of continued the legacy that the prophet had left over with the crusades? Even though it was 500 years later?

What legacy? And exactly what are you referring to when you say 'crusades'?