Archipelago and frigates

[Silverfuturist]

So... has anybody found a way that is better than a frigate (ship-of-the-line) rush? It seems that this map could fall into a "recipe/formula" kind of game.

It seems that iron is more important than anything else. More important than wonders. From my experience, if you are isolated (happens a lot), you focus on tech and use a Great Scientist to pop Navigation after you have several triremes built. Upgrade to frigates, if you have a 6 iron then 6 frigates and any melee unit will take every coastal city, which means just about all of them on archipelago. The cities fall quickly, as in 1 turn it is down to nothing. You don't need Porc Tower, just use the 2 specialist slots in the University and you will have the GS in time. I used to do it with 2 GS, the first for Astronomy, but then I found I wasn't ready for the rush and I could have hard tech-ed Astronomy anyhow.

In most the archipelago games I have played... there are mad rushes for the wonders. I ignore most of them and focus on building up to a frigate rush. England is so good for this it is ridic. I am still able to take cities with Frigates vs cannons, although I might lose a few... just make more.

The only time I don't see this happening is when 2 players share the same landmass and one rushes the other. But if the rush is succeful, I think they can get back to the frigate rush, the puppets will now provide enough gold/science to make up for the delay.

 

[KiffeLesBiffles]

So... has anybody found a way that is better than a frigate (ship-of-the-line) rush? It seems that this map could fall into a "recipe/formula" kind of game.

It seems that iron is more important than anything else. More important than wonders. From my experience, if you are isolated (happens a lot), you focus on tech and use a Great Scientist to pop Navigation after you have several triremes built. Upgrade to frigates, if you have a 6 iron then 6 frigates and any melee unit will take every coastal city, which means just about all of them on archipelago. The cities fall quickly, as in 1 turn it is down to nothing. You don't need Porc Tower, just use the 2 specialist slots in the University and you will have the GS in time. I used to do it with 2 GS, the first for Astronomy, but then I found I wasn't ready for the rush and I could have hard tech-ed Astronomy anyhow.

In most the archipelago games I have played... there are mad rushes for the wonders. I ignore most of them and focus on building up to a frigate rush. England is so good for this it is ridic. I am still able to take cities with Frigates vs cannons, although I might lose a few... just make more.

The only time I don't see this happening is when 2 players share the same landmass and one rushes the other. But if the rush is succeful, I think they can get back to the frigate rush, the puppets will now provide enough gold/science to make up for the delay.

All true. Frigate, what else ? Naval combat sucks : there is only 3 naval units before the indus ages : 1 per era ! And Naval is a HUGE clickfest.
I hope they gonna fix it somehow, then we will be able to play on other map than skirmish

 

[uigaw423]

All true. Frigate, what else ? Naval combat sucks : there is only 3 naval units before the indus ages : 1 per era ! And Naval is a HUGE clickfest.
I hope they gonna fix it somehow, then we will be able to play on other map than skirmish

Kiff, as you know people do play other maps than skirmish. Those that cannot be mentioned (my neices love Harry Potter) play a lot of fractal maps, continent maps.

I know the duels and teammer games are typically skirmish. But since the MP forum is now practically dead, it seems like the talk is just back to skirmish maps and team tournaments.

4 Points baby!

I guess I am a trouble maker in life, though I am not sure what I do wrong.
Moderator Action: You're not allowed to discuss moderator actions in public in this forum.

 

[Tabarnak]

You don't need Porc Tower, just use the 2 specialist slots in the University and you will have the GS in time. I used to do it with 2 GS, the first for Astronomy, but then I found I wasn't ready for the rush and I could have hard tech-ed Astronomy anyhow.

The PT can shave almost 10 turns. What you can do is get currency for markets before going for compass. Wait for the second gs and bulb 2 techs for Navigation. That way, you will have enough money to upgrade enough triremes and without losing much turns. 4 frigates and a scout can take any capital before turn 80 if you can get PT before everyone else.

 

[KiffeLesBiffles]

Kiff, as you know people do play other maps than skirmish. Those that cannot be mentioned (my neices love Harry Potter) play a lot of fractal maps, continent maps.

I know the duels and teammer games are typically skirmish. But since the MP forum is now practically dead, it seems like the talk is just back to skirmish maps and team tournaments.

4 Points baby!

I guess I am a trouble maker in life, though I am not sure what I do wrong.
Moderator Action: You're not allowed to discuss moderator actions in public in this forum.

I did play a lot of sea-friendly maps, including in some full ffa games with players that stay until the end . But, Naval combat cannot be fair because you need to micromanage/Double move/instant heal your units a lot. It is my point of view.

And, you will recognise that, 3 units for 4 eras is not fun, interresting nor balanced : It is like combat with only Warriors, Pikemans and Longswords... Guess what my strat is : Longsword rush... You cant play it in competitive game (Duel, Teamer or CTON )

 

[uigaw423]

I did play a lot of sea-friendly maps, including in some full ffa games with players that stay until the end . But, Naval combat cannot be fair because you need to micromanage/Double move/instant heal your units a lot. It is my point of view.

And, you will recognise that, 3 units for 4 eras is not fun, interresting nor balanced : It is like combat with only Warriors, Pikemans and Longswords... Guess what my strat is : Longsword rush... You cant play it in competitive game (Duel, Teamer or CTON )

MUST BE CAREFUL....I agree there needs to be more variety in naval units, but there really never has been until modern era in civ games. That isn't new

I find that the micromanagement aspect is fun.

Those people that don't leave games are fun to play with I will say!

 

[Noitcelfer]

So... has anybody found a way that is better than a frigate (ship-of-the-line) rush? It seems that this map could fall into a "recipe/formula" kind of game.

It seems that iron is more important than anything else. More important than wonders. From my experience, if you are isolated (happens a lot), you focus on tech and use a Great Scientist to pop Navigation after you have several triremes built. Upgrade to frigates, if you have a 6 iron then 6 frigates and any melee unit will take every coastal city, which means just about all of them on archipelago. The cities fall quickly, as in 1 turn it is down to nothing. You don't need Porc Tower, just use the 2 specialist slots in the University and you will have the GS in time. I used to do it with 2 GS, the first for Astronomy, but then I found I wasn't ready for the rush and I could have hard tech-ed Astronomy anyhow.

In most the archipelago games I have played... there are mad rushes for the wonders. I ignore most of them and focus on building up to a frigate rush. England is so good for this it is ridic. I am still able to take cities with Frigates vs cannons, although I might lose a few... just make more.

The only time I don't see this happening is when 2 players share the same landmass and one rushes the other. But if the rush is succeful, I think they can get back to the frigate rush, the puppets will now provide enough gold/science to make up for the delay.

Yeah - I don't see an easy way to combat this (apart from increasing the number of players / going OCC so the conqueror gets no advantage).

A couple of re-balancing options:

* Remove iron as a necessity, so everyone can make frigates
* Remove insta-heals
* Don't allow land units to attack from sea till later technologies (I think this used to be the case in older civ games)
* Give ranged units a "against ocean" upgrade, or make the open land upgrade include oceans (it might already do this). Give trebuchet this by default.
* Create a building that increases city bombard against ships or add it as a bonus to walls / castle
* Increase the maintenance / build / upgrade cost of frigates
* Give caravels a bonus against frigates
* Give ships a -% against cities (like horses etc)
* Limit the amount of damage ships can do to 50% of city health
* Some varient of greek fire?
* units inside a city can not be bombarded, and must be killed before city is taken (this would change all kinds of gameplay though)

 

[tommynt]

Ok: Here is the problem: Why play a map which everybody agrees that it is brokken?

Cause its "fun"? Well, when its fun why complain?

Fix to ships is simple: make them be able to do normal "melee" attacks and either give only some ships bomb or get rid of it totaly - or weaken it.

Apart that this all doesnt sound too bad: Whoever can tech fastest to Navi gets some cities - nothing wrong with that? Well and getting few Iron in 80t sounds possible ...

 

[Noitcelfer]

Ok: Here is the problem: Why play a map which everybody agrees that it is brokken?

Cause its "fun"? Well, when its fun why complain?

Fix to ships is simple: make them be able to do normal "melee" attacks and either give only some ships bomb or get rid of it totaly - or weaken it.

Apart that this all doesnt sound too bad: Whoever can tech fastest to Navi gets some cities - nothing wrong with that? Well and getting few Iron in 80t sounds possible ...

Actually you make a good point - most of the archipelago / small continents maps I play are OCC, so getting iron is luck of the draw / very expensive (via city states). In a normal game, getting iron by turn 80 should be possible for anyone.

 

[uigaw423]

Ok: Here is the problem: Why play a map which everybody agrees that it is brokken?

Cause its "fun"? Well, when its fun why complain?

Fix to ships is simple: make them be able to do normal "melee" attacks and either give only some ships bomb or get rid of it totaly - or weaken it.

Apart that this all doesnt sound too bad: Whoever can tech fastest to Navi gets some cities - nothing wrong with that? Well and getting few Iron in 80t sounds possible ...

You are right they should remove all of the maps except non-water duel maps! The the game will be fun for all!

LOL I love opinions. But that is all you expressed. Why would a boat be able to melee attack? You would be able to just thrash thru cities. Naval warfare is okay as is in my opinion, no more of a clickfest than any other type of civ war.

 

[tommynt]

You are right they should remove all of the maps except non-water duel maps! The the game will be fun for all!

What an ridic reply.
All I say is: no1 have to play maps he dont like - If u dont like duels maps dont play them. But playing a map you dont like and complaining afterwards that the map is "dumb" is kinda ....

Why would a boat be able to melee attack? You would be able to just thrash thru cities.

Actually the TE complained that ships with bomb thrash though cities .....

With naval attack they d loose health, maybe even only 1 ship at a time could attack (while with bomb you can suround city) - dependent on city placement. And well if they are weak they dont trash at all. With bomb the Problem is that 6 or more ships can attack some turn and even if attack was weak it still does lot damage added together.

U know simple math - 6x3=18 ---

 

[uigaw423]

What an ridic reply.
All I say is: no1 have to play maps he dont like - If u dont like duels maps dont play them. But playing a map you dont like and complaining afterwards that the map is "dumb" is kinda ....



Actually the TE complained that ships with bomb thrash though cities .....

With naval attack they d loose health, maybe even only 1 ship at a time could attack (while with bomb you can suround city) - dependent on city placement. And well if they are weak they dont trash at all. With bomb the Problem is that 6 or more ships can attack some turn and even if attack was weak it still does lot damage added together.

U know simple math - 6x3=18 ---

Frigates are easy to keep away from your land you just need enough land bombardment units. Even a highly upgraded archer can do some damage.

I guess my point in general is people whine too much about things that are not in their control. Or complain if there isn't the apperance of "fairness". The game is about making decisions, risk:reward ratios. Sometimes the risk of going for the top part only of the tech tree out weighs the reward. In otherwords, sometimes you will lose even if you play a flawless game. There is nothing wrong with that as it is a GAME!

 

[Silverfuturist]

Ok: Here is the problem: Why play a map which everybody agrees that it is brokken?

Cause its "fun"? Well, when its fun why complain?

Fix to ships is simple: make them be able to do normal "melee" attacks and either give only some ships bomb or get rid of it totaly - or weaken it.

Apart that this all doesnt sound too bad: Whoever can tech fastest to Navi gets some cities - nothing wrong with that? Well and getting few Iron in 80t sounds possible ...

Cuz I want to experience why certain maps are unbalanced myself, I don't want to take somebody's word for it. I want to try different things and see for myself why things don't/do work.

I didn't say it wasn't fun either... I got lots of satisfaction the first few times I blew the other players away with the frigate rushes... I am not afraid to admit I like winning.

 

[uigaw423]

Also, navi ------> navy!

 

[MasterMishi]

start and good land plays a bigger part of the result in arch maps, the clickfest is quite fun tho.
ive played a few fun east west, clickfest all the way, both were england, i had to sit back for bombers for the win, and amphibious taken cap with double move mech