Are Carriers Useless??

Do you think carriers are useful - At all? ecven modded

  • Yes

    Votes: 40 60.6%
  • NO

    Votes: 26 39.4%

  • Total voters
    66
  • Poll closed .
Sultan:

I find the air and bombardment in the default game decidedly unbalanced and have modified accordingly. I increased all bombardments, gave a couple of air units longer range and increased their moves to 2 per turn. Air power is MUCH more effective in my mod and is closer to real life IMO.
 
Mad Bomber- every time I have gone into the editor I have gotten bogged down and confused and given up. Does giving air units 2 moves mean they bomb twice or mean they somehow have further range or what?

I will probably make the jump to my own mod soon, getting bored with the sameold sameold and still four weeks+ till PTW.
 
Two move would give the unit the ability to move two more spaces depending if you flagged the immobile option off, then your planes would move around like regular units, you need to probably flag the blitz ability for the plane to attack and bomb multiple times
 
I have some ideas about how to improve this situation.

First Carriers are great if you up bombard strength on all bombard units. I suggest at least 50%. Next up marines stats to the point that they aren't utter trash compared to tanks. I do not think 10/6 is strong enough for marines. Maybe 14/7 it more like it.

Then make and upgrade too Marine(one that comes in the modern era, with much higher stats) to deal with mech infantry.

Possible lower city defense bounus also, approximently 50% or half it. 0%/25%/50% or try something like 0%/30-50%/50%. This encourages attacking city with bombard units and makes the offense/defense unit crisis* easier to deal with.

*Offense/defense unit crisis= The bizzarely large descrepencies in unit statistics exhibited by offense and defense units. Characterized by vastly supperior attack/defense/movement add up on offensive units. Though the can rationaly enjoy some advantage it should be limited at best.

Example: Infantry=90shield, 16 attack/defense add up with 1 move

Tank=100sheild, 24attack/defense add up with 2 move

This means tank OWNS outside of city combat at an unacceptable rate. The attack on tank alone is equal to infantry's attack/defense add up.

I could go on about other changes however this sums up this thread's topic. :)
 
Sultan:

Giving an air uint 2 moves means that it can carry out 2 missions per turn for example a bomber could rebase and bomb a target in a single turn, or it could recon and bomb (gave bombers the recon mission as well) It keeps the air war flowing and potent as you don't waste a turn rebasing your bomber fleets. A warning about moding, you should try to keep the units balanced, most new modders get carried away and change units in bizarre ways. If 1 unit is modded then all units after it has to be changed in some degree to keep some balance.

Free Enterprise:

Marines are 12/10 in my mod and Parras are 10/12. If bombardments are increased there is no need to lower city defenses. Also a normal tank is only 16/8 which hardly owns a fortified infantry in rough terrain.
 
Mad Bomber: I went in and modded some things to give it a try; added one to each ship movement, made all land unit upgradeable, did the two move planes (I like that idea ALOT) and of course, turned on the lethal bombardment. Made galleys appear after pottery (a big sticking point for me- always resent how long it takes to get sea movement going when you know the Polynesians weren't making maps as they conquered the pacific). Made scouts have one move but treat all terrain as roads - devilish change!

Anyway, I am having some fun with it but still I'd rather be PLAYING THE WORLD!!!
 
Sultan:

I tried making all units upgradable, but I kept facing infantry after infantry (I CAN confirm that the AI DOES get around to upgrading troops if needed) so I changed it back, it makes cavalry + infantry attacks daunting! Finally my tanks and MI s have "all terain as roads" tag so that their mobility is increased but not allowing them 5 or 6 attacks per turn (the AI can use this effectively as well so be careful, lost 2 cities and 10 aircraft to cunning AI counterattacks)
 
I've only used cariers successfully once. I used it to bomb a rubber resource far behind enemy lines. I still lost about 4 bombers to fighter planes in the process.

The AI also kept rebuilding roads to the resource until I parked a MI army on top of it.

Playing deity, I actually find bombers useless. I lose far to many to enemy fighter planes.

(also, since I started using fighter planes the AI stopped bombing my improvements.)

So now, I do build fighter planes, battleships and transports; and rather concentrate on getting my stack of 100+ artillery!

For any one who bombs the AI to pieces using bombers and carriers, try a more difficult level...
 
Originally posted by Mad Bomber
Sultan:

If bombardments are increased there is no need to lower city defenses. Also a normal tank is only 16/8 which hardly owns a fortified infantry in rough terrain.

The reason I suggest lowering city defense bonus is this: 100%city bonus+25%fortify+10%or higher tile bonus adds up to quite an appalling amount of defense therefore cutting back some on city bonuses is highly justified.

A tank with 16/8/2 does indeed "own" a 6/10/1 infantry. The infantry is screwed if it attacks. And it almost always loses when it marchers to 'defend' stacks in the opponents terriortory since even on a hill it has 15 defense without fortifying.

I suggest upping infantry to: 8/10/1.
And mech infantry are totally outclassed/owned by modern armor which is unacceptable therefore I give them 16/18/3. This is only a 33 attack defense add up whilst modern armor have 40 and is therefore justified.

Btw, I suggest adding a modern infantry unit(fairly good attack and some defense), and an upgrade to marine and one to paratrooper too.

Some might argue defense units should only do that, defend the city. I strongly disagree with this stance. Defense units should primarly defend cities, yes. However they should have some application other than just "hunkering down" in the city and waiting there, while one type of offensive unit moves out(generally some type of tank).

Note: Even with cutting back on defense bonuses defenders still retain the advantage, just not quite the 40+defense as seen in the default system.
 
Free Enterprise:

Giving Infanrty 8.10.1 is not bad, but then Cavalry shoud be changed to 8.4.3 Having infantry more powerful in attack than cavalry is inconsistant. I already had the Mech upgraded to 16.18.3 The reason for this is that a Modern Mech Infantry would be just as capable in the offensive role as a WW2 to 1960 designed tank. Remember that unit strengh is based on full strength, a wounded unit is far less powerful, so using ARTY and Planes are an essential part of a successful campaign. The defender does have the advantage in the game and in real life. Reducing defensive bonuses would make the attack too powerful IMO.
 
Originally posted by Mad Bomber
Free Enterprise:

Giving Infanrty 8.10.1 is not bad, but then Cavalry shoud be changed to 8.4.3 Having infantry more powerful in attack than cavalry is inconsistant.

By the time of modern Infantry (repeaters on offensive, machine guns on defense), Cavalry was completely outmoded. Even in the age of Riflemen (rifled muskets and cannon such as in the U.S. Civil War), Cavalry was used primarily for reconnaissance and disruption and had little effect during actual combat. By WWI, Cavalry attacks were virtual suicide.
 
The point I was tring to make here is that the movement of Ships in CIV are so incredibly slow, it quite practically renders them obsolete.
For a really good assault on another Continant it takes me sometimes 10 turns!

BTW I have modded my ships very much ie: Carriers 2/8/12

Another thing (I might set up a seperate thread) Submarines! Good grief! The most I can sink is an Ironclad! I've had to mod that too! (10/4/10)
 
Originally posted by Zachriel


By the time of modern Infantry (repeaters on offensive, machine guns on defense), Cavalry was completely outmoded. Even in the age of Riflemen (rifled muskets and cannon such as in the U.S. Civil War), Cavalry was used primarily for reconnaissance and disruption and had little effect during actual combat. By WWI, Cavalry attacks were virtual suicide.

Cav attacks were certainly suicidal during WWI on the western front. But that was the world's most technologically advanced countries clashing with huge armies in a relatively small space where the defenders practically always had prepared defenses. In other wars of the period, like the Polono-Soviet war of 1920-21, and Chinese civil wars during 1912-1945, cavalry was used much more effectively.

And, of course, infantry attacks were pretty suicidal during WWI too ...
 
As for Carriers, I don't particularly love 'em, but they're simply necessary for successful transoceanic power projection. Three Bombers and one Fighter/Jet Fighter is pretty standard load. I really never play till Stealth Bomber become available. (Why isn't there a Jet Bomber unit, something like a B-52? Reg'lar Bombers have laughably low bombardment strength compared to Mech Inf, but raising it substantially would leave reg'lar Inf too weak, me thinks.)
 
Originally posted by The Last Conformist


Cav attacks were certainly suicidal during WWI on the western front. But that was the world's most technologically advanced countries clashing with huge armies in a relatively small space where the defenders practically always had prepared defenses. In other wars of the period, like the Polono-Soviet war of 1920-21, and Chinese civil wars during 1912-1945, cavalry was used much more effectively.

And, of course, infantry attacks were pretty suicidal during WWI too ...

Not really suicde. The Germans and Austrians had advanced offensive tactics which came too late in the war even though they worked. Cavarly attacks are far more suicdal than infantry ones. In World War 2 infantry most certainly were one of the prime attacking forces. Artillery and mortars were not the only reason both of these wars came to an end.

Many of the guns in world war one were fairly worthless in this style of combat.
 
Zachriel is right. All the documentaries, such as one on the history channel spoke very little of cavalry being used at all in the Civil War(American). Mostly riflemen were used to attack, especially in forrests. Grant's army had huge amounts of riflemen when attacking.

In World War I calvary was considered a dieing breed so to speak. It is much more difficult to fire a modern rifle on horse back than on foot. Infantry can use camoflauge and group cordinating attacks. One uses a machine gun to suppress the foes while another rushes in with the rifle and grenades. A cavalry merely charges into their death. And to top it off Cavalry are easy to hit, can't make the horse try to get out the bullet's/s' way very easily.

Do you really think 1700-1800s cavalry were as good at attacking as a WW1 or WW2 infantry?

I think by the time you have infantry it isn't a well thought out plan to keep build cavalry since they cannot be upgraded to anything. Infantry on the other hand can, plus you can use surplus infantry to defend against tanks.

On the defense issue,

Even with reduced defense the defender *still* has the advantage. It just isn't the often 3:1 advantage it is on default stats. Mech infantry are quite troubling if you don't mod the defense bonus and/or bombard units. Bombard units must be capable of hitting if you plan to use them, therefore lowering defense or upping there stats is justified.

One last thing: Giving cavalry 4 defense might be a good idea, since then you can give riflemen 5 attack which would allow them to have a slim chance at trying their hand at an offensive once in awhile. Btw, I give musketmen 3 attack and muskteers 4. And the most recent use of cavarly was in Afganistan by the Northern Alliance against the Tailban.
 
Carriers are a great help, although their mov rate is too low, w/out them the landing in enemy continents would be very difficult.
If you think constructing a carrier takes too long, why dont u use the forest/deforest technic.
I built 8 battlecrussiers and 3 carriers in 3 cities in less than 20 turns!
 
Originally posted by Zcylen
Carriers are a great help, although their mov rate is too low, w/out them the landing in enemy continents would be very difficult.
If you think constructing a carrier takes too long, why dont u use the forest/deforest technic.
I built 8 battlecrussiers and 3 carriers in 3 cities in less than 20 turns!

Carriers no good if the AI has fighters.

Forest/deforest doesn't work anymore!
 
Originally posted by Free Enterprise
Zachriel is right. All the documentaries, such as one on the history channel spoke very little of cavalry being used at all in the Civil War(American). Mostly riflemen were used to attack, especially in forrests. Grant's army had huge amounts of riflemen when attacking.

They make sensible history TV documentaries where you live? I'm impressed.

At the time of the American Civil War, infantry units had been used as main attacking units for centuries. Nothing remarkable about that.

In World War I calvary was considered a dieing breed so to speak. It is much more difficult to fire a modern rifle on horse back than on foot. Infantry can use camoflauge and group cordinating attacks. One uses a machine gun to suppress the foes while another rushes in with the rifle and grenades. A cavalry merely charges into their death. And to top it off Cavalry are easy to hit, can't make the horse try to get out the bullet's/s' way very easily.

Do you really think 1700-1800s cavalry were as good at attacking as a WW1 or WW2 infantry?


In most circumstances, no.

The game, of course, abstracts away all the development that went on in the kind of troops represented by a given unit. When you've acquired Infantry and are still havign Cav, we're speaking roughly 1900 tech level. I assume that the attack rating includes tactical manoeuvrability etc, and I do think that the same attack value for Infantry and Cav is a decent approximation, when fighting on open ground. That didn't happen alot during WWI.

That brings us to one of the most unrealistic features of the combat system of the civ games; in reality, mounted units were really only any good in open terrain, whereas the games positively encourages us to throw them at fortified cities. SMAC took a step in the right direction by giving footsloggers an attack bonus against cities, but even there you generally took cities by running mechanized units straight into them, and Civ III increased the advantage of using mounted units to attack cities by including the retreat ability.

In non-medieval times (ie both ancient and industrial), the main strength of mounted units should be high mobility, not high attack rating as compared to contemporary foot units. The reason cav did well in the Polono-Soviet War was precisely that they could outpace infantry units and quickly secure strategic locations etc. And they should suck at storming fortified cities.

To achieve realism in this regard would require a drastic rework of unit stats, which's doable in the editor, and different terrain and city defence effects on different units, which's not. Let's hope for Civ IV. For the meantime, I'll assume my Cav are dragoons; moves on horse, typically attack on foot.

I think by the time you have infantry it isn't a well thought out plan to keep build cavalry since they cannot be upgraded to anything. Infantry on the other hand can, plus you can use surplus infantry to defend against tanks.

I don't expect much of my attack forces to survive to be upgraded, so if I'm at war during this stage of the game, I'll still use Cav as my primary offensive units; their higher movement makes them way more flexible, and the retreat abilit helps to make them last a bit longer. Infantry typically only figure in my offensive forces as artillery guards.
 
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