Aristocracy Experiment

[EverNoob]

It's true I wasn't very clear about "AI interaction". I meant no warmongering, no tech trading, no open borders. Defensive war and capturing cities to force AI peace is fine. I wanted to have some AI neighbours around to have a realistic situation where you have to compete for land and worry about defense.

 

[EverNoob]

Here's my game at turn 100. Going for cottage-city-states.

4 cities, with a 5th settler en route to found a new city.

Techs:

• Agriculture
• Exploration
• Crafting
• Ancient Chants
• Education
• Mining
• roughly 1/3 into Cartography

Units/Buildings built:

• 11 warriors
• 3 workers
• 1 goblin
• 1 palisade
• 1 monument

27 at 70% science
13
-14 total maintenance
24 gold in reserve

282 game score

I realize that the Clan make good early game warmongers, but unlike Sheelba Jonas also makes a great REXer as well. So the no warmongering isn't such a handicap for the purposes of our comparison. I don't think there is a "perfect scenario" for comparison, without making it too artificial and therefore not applicable to a real game. But I'm open to ideas

 

[EverNoob]

Very nice tech speed. Mining first was a great call.

I second that! I was debating for my own game whether to go Mining first or not. But in the end I decided to go for Education 1st, Mining 2nd. Looks like both ways would've been good.

 

[Jet]

I think we should scrap this comparison, it's simply failed.

I think one cannot expect too much from any single game. There will always be some objections.

 

[Jet]

Oops, never mind.

 

[retro V]

Well, it looks like the end result of my game will be useless as a comparison since I joined Earthling in completely wiping out the Malakim in the early stages. One way of looking at it might be that removing a neighbour minimises any heretofore interaction, however, I'd have to concede that letting Decius live severely gimps expansion and early cash-flow and, in the long run, mitigates progress. Hence my final result will be biased. Nevertheless, here it is.

Final 150 turns.

Spoiler :

The plan now that Decius is out the way and with a continent seemingly all to myself is to get Rantine on board and start stealing cities while settling in the gaps. Military has no immediate use so neither does production. Therefore, from turn 147 to 224, all I had to build was Settlers, Workers to spam cottages and plantations, Thanes to spread religion and culture, and Soldiers of Kilmorph to rush Councils, Markets, Temples and Courthouses. The plantations actually came quite late since Calendar was eventually discovered on turn 164. There just weren't enough resources to warrant the urgency, I felt. That's when I switched to Agrarianism, Arete and Religion. City states came later still on turn 187 when I finally hit 100 beakers per turn. Arete was finally switched to Caste System at turn 251, and there I stayed. Not a hint of Aristocracy anywhere

Other dates of note include sacrificing a Great Prophet for a Golden Age on turn 162; meeting another Civ on our continent, the Khazad, on turn 189; making the first of my only two trades, for Animal Husbandry on turn 192 (Workers were getting idle - had to give them something to do); losing the truce with the Barbarians on turn 224; discovering Guilds from a Pirate Ship on turn 253; getting a free Great Merchant on turn 269 for discovering Mercantilism which forced me to make the second of my only two trades, Horseback Riding, just so I could bulb something decent, Medicine.

When the truce ended, I set about popping all the lairs (more rule-breaking?) and got nothing but Lizardmen, Skeletons and Spectres for my troubles. One particular dungeon spawned a Lizard Assassin and numerous other monsters during numerous explorations. Just when it looked like it would never end it relinquished a Great Engineer. Having already built most of the Mines of Galdur, he was sent to the Capital to await further instructions. On turn 249, though, when another Great Person was born in some city, I used the pair of them to initiate my second Golden Age at the same time as the Mines were finished on turn 249.

At the end of the first 147 turns, I was wondering what victory to go for. I know winning is not the exercise here, demonstrating a particular economy is, but I needed some kind of end goal. Altar didn't seem like a good idea for a non-Philosophical Civ, especially one running a Cottage Economy. Conquest or Domination would have been apt for the Clan. But since Runes of Kilmorph was the first religion to be founded and getting the upper hand on Erebus (the Elves obviously had their Fellowship thing going on, but it wasn't catching) and the Holy City belonged to the only other guy on our continent, Arturus Thorne, Religious seemed like the logical, albeit cheapest, victory to go for. With that in mind, Thanes started spreading Runes all over the Elves, Hippus, Sheaim and Luchuirp.

On turn 280 when Runes of Kilmorph reached a 77% hold of the world, I declared on the Khazad. It was going so well. I had two final Thanes sitting on the only foreign cities left that still needed to have Runes spread to them (because I didn't want to hit 80% before I got hold of the Holy City), when Order was founded, knocking Runes down a couple of percent even with the remaining foreign cities having Runes spread to them. The whole world had Kilmorph's loving in all their cities except for the Barbarian's. So I took the Holy City anyway, vassalised the rest of Arturus' pathetic nation and proceeded in occupying and converting the rest of the Barbarian State - starting with the seat of the Red Dragon's looming prescence. Except I didn't have the Courage for it, in the Arcane sense of the word. Catapults only got him down to 17.x/19 but I threw everything else I had at him anyway. Which was a lot. But even though most of my guys chickened out, some got through and killed him and the rest of the defenders. All except for one - so the bastard Dwarves got the Killlsteal and I lost the Hoard to them. Then Empyrean gets founded throwing Runes down another couple of percent so I didn't hit 80% until turn 297.

Just to recap, technologies discovered by turn 147:

Agriculture
Exploration
Crafting
Mining
Masonry
Construction
Ancient Chants
Education
Mysticism
Way of the Earthmother.

Technologies discovered by turn 297:

Calendar
Festivals
Drama
Animal Husbandry (traded)
Horseback Riding (traded)
Fishing
Sailing
Trade
Optics
Cartography
Archery
Hunting
Bronzeworking
Smelting
Sanitation
Medicine (part-bulbed)
Writing
Code of Laws
Mercantilism
Mathematics
Feudalism
Guilds (Pirate Ship reward)
Currency
Taxation
Warfare
Military Strategy (tribute)
Knowledge of the Ether
Way of the Wise
Way of the Wicked
Priesthood
Philosophy

Forgive me for not taking more concrete notes on the commercial aspect as others have so far done but here are the screenshots which, along with the shots taken on turn 147, I'm sure something can be determined:

 

[EverNoob]

Here's my summary at turn 150, Ozzy style, score is 660. Went early cottage/city-states. I think it might've been better to go GK for awhile before switching to city-states, but we'll see. I'm gonna play it to turn 200, maybe 250. My comp is so slow it's taking forever.

Note the production values for granary and settler are cost without taking into account the expansive trait bonus.

Once we're all done, we'll compile and compare all the games in a table similar to Ozzy's and see...

Thanks to everyone who's participating!

 

[Emptiness]

I decided work with God King, since I tend to use that in most games. I don't generally go after Education until later, so I started with the turn 0 save and worked from there. I tried to follow the minimal interaction rule, although some may feel that I went too far.

Spoiler turn 50 summary :

Civics: God King
+14 /+0 @100% , 0 treasury
Research path: Agriculture, Ancient Chants, Mysticism. 11 turns to Crafting.
1 city. 2 warriors, 1 worker.

+31 toward Agriculture on turn 7 from Black Candle event. Shaved off 3 turns. No gold to buy the prophet - I'm used to goody huts.

Spoiler turn 100 summary :

Civics: God King/Agrarianism
+26 /+0 @70% , 98 treasury
Research path: Crafting, Mining, Exploration, Calendar. 8 turns to Festivals.
3 cities. 10 warriors, 4 workers, 1 archer (on other continent).

Spoiler turn 150 summary :

Civics: God King/Nationhood/Apprenticeship/Agrarianism
+55 /+4 @60% , 94 treasury
Research path: Festivals, Animal Husbandry, Education, Code of Laws, Bronze Working. 4 turns to Masonry.
5 cities. 18 warriors, 5 workers, 1 archer.

I declared war on Decius on turn 126 when he moved a settler into "my area". I didn't make peace until turn 145 (when I noticed he had swordsmen), but I didn't take any of his cities or pillage any tiles. It was a war in name only; the point was to prevent him from blocking my expansion. His only casualties were the settler and escort (a warrior and a scout).

Spoiler turn 200 summary :

Civics: City States/Nationhood/Apprenticeship/Agrarianism
+51 /+4 @40% , 117 treasury
Research path: Masonry, Sanitation, Horseback Riding, Cartography, Construction, Warfare, Writing. 12 turns to Trade.
7 cities. 18 axemen, 18 warriors, Rantine, 6 wolf riders, 2 catapults, 5 workers, 1 archer.

I had 7 cities on turn 180 (2 free from the barbarians thanks to Rantine) and it became clear that maintenance costs were making God King a problem. My empire was strung out along the river with the capital at one end. Long-term God King usage requires keeping the cities close to the capital, but in this situation that would have involved settling some worthless city sites. Started researching Cartography and switched to City States on turn 184. I also demanded maps from everyone, to get a look around. Interaction, but it had no economic effect so hopefully that's okay.

Spoiler City Screenshots :

Spoiler Braduk the Burning :

Spoiler Renegade Hill :

Spoiler Shazak :

Spoiler Hezic'kul :

Spoiler Sorodh :

Spoiler Nininsnal :

Spoiler Sludgehome :

Spoiler after turn 200 :

I could no longer contain my bloodlust and attacked Decius in earnest on turn 201. Three cities with warrens making axemen and a city making catapults, with Decius only having four cities. I just couldn't justify not attacking, even though it invalidates the rest of my results. I'd taken his four cities by turn 222, but he had managed to capture a barbarian city south of the Khazad. Made peace with him for now.

After Decius I attacked the Khazad. Poor guy only had one city on turn 142; for some reason almost all of the barbarians from my area had gone south to attack him. By the time I attacked him (turn 238) he had managed to push out to 5 cities, but I had tech, numbers, and a hero on my side. During that war I redeclared on Decius to nab Orthus' Axe from the swordsman carrying it, and also picked up Feudalism. I was able to get Decius to capitulate, but Arturus Thorne stubbornly refused and so I was forced to eliminate him.

Sailed over and vassalized Tasunke, who had obviously fallen into economic stagnation (only improvements were farms, had bronze weapons but only warriors and a couple horsemen, not many total units). He capitulated after the third city fell.

Then attacked the Ljosalfar, which was a mistake. They were not stagnated, and I only had 23 units on the continent (although Rantine and Gibbon Goetia were two of them). Tasunke had already used Warcry, but Arendel hadn't used March of the Trees, which immediately turned my advance into a withdrawal. Once the trees stopped moving I went back, but because of my mismanagement of the war (ie my cities were all doing economic stuff instead of building military units) the offensive stalled after taking the first city. Ljosalfar recon units attacked the weak Hippus (I gave him a bunch of tech but it takes time to have an effect) on the flank, and I was forced to split my forces to help retake and defend their cities. Alas, copper axemen with city raider III make poor city defenders against rangers with combat II. I was forced to make peace with the Ljosalfar and bring in reinforcements.

Unfortunately she must have known what I was planning, because she attacked me before I could bring in more units, and this time she had assassins. I was able to hold off until reinforcement arrived, thanks to mercenaries from Guild of the Nine. Casulties were fairly heavy, however. My reinforcements helped, but the first wave was mostly defenders to bolster the Hippus cities. The offensive units I did bring (4 shadows) were not as much help as I'd hoped because, as I discovered by losing 2 of them, she had built Dies Diei and so was able to see them. (Must remember to pay more attention.) I launched an assault against the Empyrean holy city (which fortunately was coastal and also close to the one Ljosalfar city I'd already taken), and managed to take and hold it, but with very heavy casualties (lost Gibbon and all my catapults to assassins, plus most of my city raider axemen, plus 20 or so mercs; at least Rantine lived).

It is now turn 383. I have one city turning out 2 Nightwatch per turn, one making catapults, and 8 or so others making Ogres. I'm researching toward Pass Through the Ether, because The Nexus will be very helpful in facilitating reinforcement. I haven't lost any of my transports yet, but privateers are starting to appear and direct teleportation will be faster and safer. The Luchuirp/Mercurian alliance just declared war on me, with their shiny new Iron Golems, so it will be an interesting war. Fortunately all of my foes are following FoL, and I'm CoE, so no free angels for Basium. I just hope that one lone archer, fortified on a hill in the ice wastes north of the Luchuirp, can hold out until I get to him...

Spoiler My conclusion: :

I'm pleased with the start I was able to get using God King, but it isn't practical to stay in God King with this map position. I suppose I could have tried relocating my capital to a more central location, but I prefer not to do that unless I have no choice. God King is intended to be an early game civic, so I don't feel bad about switching out of it for City States.

However, because of the large number of riverside grassland and flood plains tiles available in this map, I think that Aristocracy may be the better way to go. It will be interesting to see what results people get using it.

 

[loffenx]

Could not start the save myself, but it is very interesting to follow the results Especially the demographics, since I'm trying to learn how to interpret them. My 2 c's :

One thing that seems interesting in comparison is approval rate, in combination with life expectancy, since they predict the empires potential for further growth in the short run. An empire with high values here might look forward to important growth in the coming turns, that would predict even better scores given a few more turns, while one that has reached an approval rate of ~50% is probably facing a time of stagnation, atleast in the short run.

Something that struck me as odd (but might be totally irrelevant for the comparison and only interesting as demographics-crunching) is that EverNoobs empire has a cropyield of 97, but less population than 3 out of Ozzy's 4 attempts, and an approval rate of 51. Where is all the crop going? (no criticism, just trying to learn )

Tip: http://www.civfanatics.com/civ4/strategy/demographics.php

 

[Turinturambar]

So I finished my game: Altar victory on turn 329.

My orcs were peaceful, never declaring war on anyone and mostly trading techs with the AIs. I figured that was allowed since no tech trading was not checked. My start was very slow however, it took until turn 170 until my economy was up and running (i.e. sanitation/aristo/trade/currency). I'm not used to playing stupid orcs. However after ~turn 220 the economy snowballed catapulting me quickly into the endgame.

I think that the start/leader was very unfavourable to the standard agristo situation.

1. Almost no useful calendar resources, which obviously weakens the essential calendar tech for aristocracy

2. Expansive leader, so you don't need to rely on excess food for your settlers.

3. Barbarian leader, so you don't need to worry about early productivity/defense, you don't need to worry about getting pillaged and your tech pace is greatly slowed, so that longterm investments become slightly better.

 

[OzzyKP]

Yet there are a huge amount of rivers and fresh water to support a farm based economy.

 

[vale]

Yet there are a huge amount of rivers and fresh water to support a farm based economy.

You are acting the like farm economy failed. Again, it is rough to compare a game where someone had a whole continent to himself thanks to war relatively early to one where one was forced to push out settlers quickly to grab room in an attempt to claim some of the land for himself.

I did learn quite a bit from a couple of the games posted here. Mining first (before even agriculture) was a great idea with an expansive leader.

Spoiler :

I did a replay of mine where I went mining first and did city placement more along the lines of Turin (blocking wine city second to try to claim some more land, desert gold city third instead of second, then I started settling down the river since it was open for me).

My build was basically goblins until happy cap, worker, settler, settler, worker, worker, settler, Deruptus...

I managed to convert most of my early goblins into wolf riders (just park them at the edge of your cultural borders and wait until you see a wolf wandering around outside and then either attack them (never seen this possible) or go outside to where they can attack you. This minimizes risk and also maximizes the lack of fogbusting. Wolf riders are much nicer for scouting out city locations. Basically I was keeping my scouting to a minimum and only scouting a few turns in advance of settlers to try to max barb spawns.

turn 150 results:
at 70% research I'm getting 93 beakers per turn and 4 gold per turn

6 cities, capital has public baths up and is a huge commerce farm. Working on growing the other cities with public baths coming up. Health is ok since I've picked up bananas, cows, rice and sheep (and reagents when I start getting herbalists up). I have courthouses around my empire (very lazy about production choices really should have done public baths first) so maintenance isn't too bad.

I played pretty sloppily, let some cities grow into unhappiness unhealthiness unnecessarily etc. Did not build enough workers (mining first is weird, always felt way less worker intense than normal).

I have teched:
crafting
mining
agriculture
(picked up ancient chants from a graveyard event somewhere in here)
calendar
education
code of laws
exploration
bronze working
sanitation
animal husbandry
writing
horseback riding
trade
masonry
started construction

I was trying Turins plan of for the hording at trade but I got hosed there and only picked up 2 warriors in the far south of the other continent). So far I've only met Arturus and Tasunke. Decius is dead to barbarians. Oh thats another thing. Anti-fogbusting is huge here even if peaceful. Both games I tried to keep as few people (basically only goblins looking for wolves and wolf riders staking out city sites) outside of my borders as possible to maximize barb spawns so I could have more room to expand peacefully. In the mining first game Decius was completely toast from barbs only around 130 and that entire long river belongs to me. His second city got toasted very early and again acheron has taken up residence there so culture is a problem on my wine city.

I have several happy resources:
dye
wine
ale
silk
gold

That with public baths means my cities really can afford to grow and work most of their farms and mines.

Oh yeah, Rantine doesn't work. I can understand him not working on Acheron's city, but I can't even jack Decius' Capital. Is it because Orthus is there? So until I lose my truce with the barbs, I guess the barbs get to keep their cities. Oh and the barb truce ending is going to hurt.

The farm economy is fine here. Teching mining first netted me code of laws about 20 turns earlier than teching agriculture first which was huge for getting the economy going quickly. I feel like teching trade was a waste at the moment and I would have been better served grabbing a religion given that I can't meet anyone. I don't know when the barbs will declare on me as I don't know everyone but I am way ahead of Tasunke and Arturus in score (857-485-256). Tasunke has nothing to trade me, Arturus has Mysticism and Way of the Earthmother (he has the shrine) for sure, not sure if he has any other religious techs.

I've always avoided the barbarian trait in the past but it certainly feels pretty strong here. Not financial strong or anything but I was able to expand with minimal garrisons for the entire time.

Here is a pictorial reason of why I love Aristocracy. This is my capital at turn 150:

Aristocracy is giving me 10 base commerce per turn (+1 bonus commerce from deruptus)
And my second city (only other city with public baths up so far) 8 commerce from Aristocracy (I forgot to get the cottage down on that plains it is working while my workers were there)
All of my cities are working at least one farm. Most are working multiple farms. Across my empire, Aristocracy is accounting for probably a good 30 commerce per turn. Actually just counted it. I am working 19 farms in my empire so that is 38 commerce per turn I am getting from Aristocracy.

Long term I have some problems. I will lose the wine to Acheron shortly. I can't be too far from the truce ending based on the scores I see. And I made a costly sidetrack for trade instead of something that might solve happiness/culture problems.

 

[retro V]

It's funny how if you don't trade with AI then they have nothing to trade for. I'm usually pretty tight with tech-trading, but I didn't trade at all hardly in this game and maybe it shows. I'm guessing Turin was fairly generous in his trades (nothing wrong with that) and that's why his opponents managed to have knowledge of Rage and Animal Mastery and other such late techs. By the end of my game, the best my opponents had to offer was Military Strategy

 

[OzzyKP]

You are acting the like farm economy failed. Again, it is rough to compare a game where someone had a whole continent to himself thanks to war relatively early to one where one was forced to push out settlers quickly to grab room in an attempt to claim some of the land for himself.

I did learn quite a bit from a couple of the games posted here. Mining first (before even agriculture) was a great idea with an expansive leader.

I'm not saying anything of the sort, none of the Aristocracy folks seem to have really done a complete analysis yet to compare adequately. I was just responding to Turin's comments on how the map doesn't favor his preferred strategy, and I was just pointing out a way in which it does.

Hopefully some folks will post their stats like EverNoob and I did so we can get a good side-by-side comparison.

 

[EverNoob]

Something that struck me as odd (but might be totally irrelevant for the comparison and only interesting as demographics-crunching) is that EverNoobs empire has a cropyield of 97, but less population than 3 out of Ozzy's 4 attempts, and an approval rate of 51. Where is all the crop going? (no criticism, just trying to learn )

I remember having just researched animal husbandry at that point in the game, so my total food yield went up but my population hadn't gone up yet. Cropyield is a turn by turn stat I think.

 

[vale]

Here is my info for turn 150 in my second try (mining first game)

Techs researched:
Agriculture - 124
Exploration -124
Crafting - 187
Ancient Chants -124 - came from a graveyard event so I am giving 2 totals - costs 25 gold
Calendar - 249
Animal Husbandry - 280
Horseback Riding - 561
Trade - 702
Mining - 312
Masonry - 218
Bronze Working - 624
Education - 436
Writing - 592
Code of Laws - 499
Sanitation - 998
Some overflow as turn 150 was the turn masonry completed but I see no way to figure out the amount of overflow
Total - 5906 beakers (6030 with Ancient Chants)

Production:
Granary x 2 - 240
Public Baths x 2 - 300
Training Yard x 2 - 200
Deruptus Brewing House - 240
Monument x 5 - 300
Courthouse x 5 - 600
Smokehouse - 120
Worker x 8 - 600
Settler x 5 - 1100
Goblin x 5 - 75 - 4 have upgraded to wolf riders but I list as goblins here
Rantine x 1 - 180
Warrior x 4 - 100
Incomplete Production -274
Total - 4329

Stats:
GNP: 134 (1)
Mfg: 74 (1)
Crop: 141 (1)
Population: 3398000 (1)
Soldiers: 85000 (4)
Land: 130000 (2)
Approval: 53 (4)
Life: 58 (4)

At 100% research I get 134 beakers per turn and lose 40 gold per turn. At 0% research I get 0 beakers per turn and gain 109 gold per turn. The breakeven point is at 73% where I get 98 beakers per turn.

By the way, that trade sideline was pointless. I can't even build libraries.

 

[vale]

What are the requirements for Rantine to be able to steal a city?

 

[MagisterCultuum]

def reqConvertCityRantine(caster):
	pPlot = caster.plot()
	pCity = pPlot.getPlotCity()
	if pCity.getOwner() == caster.getOwner():
		return False
	if pCity.getOwner() != gc.getBARBARIAN_PLAYER():
		return False
	for i in range(pPlot.getNumUnits()):
		pUnit = pPlot.getUnit(i)
		if pUnit.getOwner() == gc.getBARBARIAN_PLAYER():
			if pUnit.baseCombatStr() > caster.baseCombatStr():
				return False
	return True

def spellConvertCityRantine(caster):
	pCity = caster.plot().getPlotCity()
	pPlayer = gc.getPlayer(caster.getOwner())
	pPlayer.acquireCity(pCity,false,false)

Rantine must have higher base strength than any defender (promotions like Strong or Heroic Strength increase this, but normal combat promotions do not), and the city must be own by the barbarians.


I'm thinking I may change it to take the actual combat odds into account.

 

[Turinturambar]

It's funny how if you don't trade with AI then they have nothing to trade for. I'm usually pretty tight with tech-trading, but I didn't trade at all hardly in this game and maybe it shows. I'm guessing Turin was fairly generous in his trades (nothing wrong with that) and that's why his opponents managed to have knowledge of Rage and Animal Mastery and other such late techs. By the end of my game, the best my opponents had to offer was Military Strategy

I find it more sad than anything. The Ljolsofaer AI has not even researched Calendar or bronze working in your game on turn 300. Same for Tasunke. It is quite amazing how much the AI gets screwed with its hard useless beelines and insane flavour values. When I added some sensible forced beelines to the AI, so that they have to research calendar/education/Col after gaining a certain number of cities, the noble AI was teching better than the AIs observed in your game.

I wasn't particularly generous with techs in this game, the AI simply techs quite well once it gets the basic economic techs.

I'm not saying anything of the sort, none of the Aristocracy folks seem to have really done a complete analysis yet to compare adequately. I was just responding to Turin's comments on how the map doesn't favor his preferred strategy, and I was just pointing out a way in which it does.

Well fresh water is a necessity for the farm economy, so I don't really count it as a plus. Without fresh water you have to transition from a cottage economy to the farm economy at construction, which would not be useful in a comparison game.

 

[OzzyKP]

Which means Aristocracy is a situational strategy, not a universal one.