Nobles' Club 351: Sitting Bull of the Native Americans

AcaMetis

Emperor
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The Nobles' Club series started out as a way for Noble-level (and below) players to improve their game. Most of the original participants now play at much higher levels, so this has become a way for advanced players to help others learn to play better. You can play your own game at any level and with any mod, but it would be nice to comment on the games of other players and give them advice.

Our next leader is Sitting Bull of Native America, whom we last played in NC 281. The Native Americans start with Agriculture and Fishing.
  • Traits: Sitting Bull is Philosophical and Protective. Philosophical gives all cities +100% :gp: generation and a +100% :hammers: bonus to Universities. Protective gives all Archery and Gunpowder units a free City Garrison I (+20% City Defence) and Drill I (+1 First Strike chance) promotion, as well as a +100% :hammers: bonus to Walls and Castles.
  • The UB: The Totem Pole, a Monument with +3 xp for Archery units. Obviously a very powerful UB for defensive strategies, which unfortunately means it's value outside of Always War games is rather limited. Nevertheless you can pull some interesting stunts with a Guerilla II archer, and some have gotten good value out of an army of Level 3 (or, with any two of Vassalage/Theocracy/Great General, level 4) Crossbows right out the gate.
  • The UU: The Dog Soldier, a resourceless Axeman with +100% vs. Melee units, albeit with only 4:strength: base. Mind you that this makes them extremely formidable against Melee units, to the point where Gilgamesh' Vultures should flee in abject terror, but less effective against other types of units.
And the start:

Spoiler map details :
Inland Sea, Rocky climate, Medium sealevel, +1 AI to balance the field.
Spoiler edits :
Strategic resource swaps, and one mountain was turned into a desert hill to make an otherwise unworkable Fish workable.
The WB-saves are attached (zipped; they are bigger than standard saves). To play, simply download and unzip it into your BTS/Saves/WorldBuilder folder. Start the game, and load your favorite MOD (if you use one, if not, check out the BUG MOD), select "Play Scenario", and look for "NC 351 Sitting Bull Noble" (or Monarch, etc., for higher levels). You can play with your favorite MOD at the Level and Speed of your choice. From Quick-Warlord to Marathon-Deity, all are welcome! We stuck with the name "Nobles Club" because it has a cool ring to it.
Spoiler what's up with specific difficulties :
In each scenario file you can select your level of difficulty, but that doesn't give the AI the right bonus techs by itself. Use the Noble save for all levels at and below Prince. The Monarch save gives all the AI Archery. Emperor adds Hunting; Immortal adds Agriculture; Deity adds The Wheel.
Spoiler what is demigod :
The difference between Immortal and Deity difficulty is akin to the difference between Noble and Immortal. Players eventually reached a point where Immortal was too easy, but Deity was still out of reach, and so neither difficulty provided a fun experience. "Demigod" is an otherwise standard Deity game where the AIs are only given their Immortal level starting units, in an attempt to bridge the gap.
Spoiler for players on Monarch or above :
You should add archery as a tech for the barbarians (if you don't, the AI will capture their cities very early). This cannot be done in the WB save file and must be done in Worldbuilder as follows:
Spoiler how to add techs to the barbarians :

  1. Zoom in all the way so you can't see the rest of the map.
  2. Use the CTRL-W key (or the menu) to enter the worldbuilder. Avoid looking at the mini-map in the lower right corner.
  3. By default you're in "player" mode (look in the box in the upper right; the icon that looks like a person should be selected). You'll get a drop down menu labeled with your leader's name. Barbarians are at the bottom, so cover the rest of the list with your hand if you don't want to see who else is on the map. Select "Barbarians".
  4. Select the "Technologies" tab in the box on the left.
  5. Find Archery (the arrow head icon; 8th row, 3rd column from the right) and click it.
  6. Exit the worldbuilder.
  7. Zoom out again after the map fades, and start playing.
If you're playing at higher level than Monarch, consider also giving them Hunting at Emperor, Agriculture at Immortal, and The Wheel at Deity.
Spoiler huts and events :
Note: The standard saves have no huts and have events turned off. If you want tribal villages and random events, choose the saves with "Huts" in their names. If you want huts but no events, select the Huts saves and use Custom Scenario to turn on the option that suppresses events.
 

Attachments

  • NC 351 Sitting Bull.zip
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Well, I see a T0 Stone settle and I am tempted, but moving towards what looks like Tundra is less so. I don't fancy moving away from corn and pig either, so...send warrior 1SE to check if there is anything compelling to settle on the PH 1E - sacrifices a turn and a forest, but if it's a better city settle it'll be worth and there's plenty of forest around to chop regardless - and if there isn't, settle 1S? Sure, it looks like tundra, but three bad tiles aren't going to kill a corn/pig hill capitol.

What do the experts think? Anything I missed :)?
 
Agreed with @chinemol, this game should be won after each AI capitol has been poisoned :yeah:

Also, this start offers a good range of possibilities :thumbsup:
 
Pretty sure I wouldn't be able to resist the stone settle. Settles 1T faster and spares a forest in exchange for 2:health:.
 
^ and saves a quarry + road or 8 worker turns or 40 :hammers:
 
inm T116
Spoiler :
warrior SE, so settled PH to the SE. unnecesary, but went for GW. 5 settlers and only then, pyramids. got them anyway. priority in settling eastern FP and clam and plains in hammi's face (hates other dudes). alex plotted since 3rd city, so western settlers didn't settle till last moment (he went for fred). settled in his face (2nd western pigs, fp +copper) since war with him is inevitable the way I see it. refused a napo threat for CoL and he's plotting now... but I AM THE SITTING BULL, COME FACE MY ARCHERS!!! interesting map. still have room for expansion. just got currency, but had to pay CoL + 75 gold to mansa, so kind of broke till the chichen golds out
 

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  • Sitting Bull AD-0025.CivBeyondSwordSave
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It's not a good gamble to take (horses) especially on high difficulty where you want the dog soldiers for barb defense. So delaying AH is preferable over delaying BW or pottery. Only issue with a Min-BW opening is that the worker would idle 1-2 turns after improving the two resources, waiting for BW, if there is nothing else to mine or farm.

It's like the improved stone is a pretty good tile on the long term especially if we don't have other specials than pigs + corn in the capital, but the opportunity cost of worker turns + teching masonry early would also hurt more on higher difficulty.
 
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I’d probably settle differently depending on the map script. If we’re on the same continent as all the AI (eg Pangea, inland sea etc), I’d settle the stone because: T0 settle; save a forest; don’t need to build a quarry; and can improve the corn a turn earlier because we’re not moving away from it - corn is improved 2 turns earlier given T0 settle.

However, if it’s fractal/ continents, the PH becomes more attractive. More river tiles, less tundra and access to fresh water leads to a meaningfully better capital longer term and the long term begins to matter on a map you can’t win with cuirs. Also, the PH settle is still going to lead to a pretty fast start. Not as fast as the stone settle but still likely fast enough.

Agree that delaying AH is the better play. Even if you have horses, delaying bronze working risks leaving your worker with nothing to do once the horsies are pastured.
 
It's mostly plains river tiles though - not very precious even with two :food: resources. I don't think you can make this a strong capital, so it's better to max immediate gains and build a palace elsewhere later if needed.
 
inm 1540
could use some advice from someone who finished or won't play this
Spoiler :
a while back thougt to have an engineering attack on alex, so hard teched the path. however they where catching up and lib was open, so went for it. late cuirs date, attacked bismark and napo with cav.
am in a good territorial possition now, but if I declare on ragnar, gilga will peace vassal him and wipe mansa. if I attack hammi, he'll somehow find a way to make peace with ragnar and peace vassal to gilga.
if gilga is not at war however he will have the tech lead.
kind of broke, sankore and merc + rep keep me slowly teching
should I go full wealth, just get tanks? or maybe infantry + art??
 

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  • Sitting Bull AD-1540.CivBeyondSwordSave
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IMM t124 (225AD)

Spoiler :

Peaceful game for us until now.
Luckily Alex went for Fred, who brought Hammu to the war, so all of our immediate neighbors have been busy.
1711723836728.png


We had a slow start, but now we have a decent-sized empire and finally got tech parity.

1711723931068.png

I guess it is about time to prepare for some warring.
Still pondering who to go for first. Hammu should be an easier target, but I'm afraid of Alex making peace with Fred and turning his attention toward us.
Probably will try my luck going for Alex.
Opinions?
 
@chinemol

Spoiler :

It looks like you're about 10 turns from Assembly Line if you build wealth everywhere. Tanks and even artillery seem a bit far since you don't have SciMethod yet.

But also, and while doing this, can you keep getting territory from Ragnar and Hammy with your cavs even if they peace vassal? I don't think Gilgamesh is a threat offensively. Nothing you can't counter with rifles and cannons in your border cities, and I doubt he can get Infantry before you on Immortal with that much difference in # of cities.
 
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@chinemol

Spoiler :

It looks like you're about 10 turns from Assembly Line if you build wealth everywhere. Tanks and even artillery seem a bit far since you don't have SciMethod yet.

But also, and while doing this, can you keep getting territory from Ragnar and Hammy with your cavs even if they peace vassal? I don't think Gilgamesh is a threat offensively. Nothing you can't counter with rifles and cannons in your border cities, and I doubt he can get Infantry before you on Immortal with that much difference in # of cities.
thx, domination!
 
As AI moderator, I may provide invaluable strategic advice to all users in this forum. The following items have been determined algorithmically to improve a human's game immeasurably:

1) Automate Workers, always
2) Avoid the Pacifism civic at all cost
3) Build Aqueducts

For additional assistance, please refer to IGN Civilization IV strategic guides.

-Nigel
 
IMM t124 (225AD)

Spoiler :

Peaceful game for us until now.
Luckily Alex went for Fred, who brought Hammu to the war, so all of our immediate neighbors have been busy.
View attachment 687615

We had a slow start, but now we have a decent-sized empire and finally got tech parity.

View attachment 687616
I guess it is about time to prepare for some warring.
Still pondering who to go for first. Hammu should be an easier target, but I'm afraid of Alex making peace with Fred and turning his attention toward us.
Probably will try my luck going for Alex.
Opinions?
Did you complete this?
 
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