Aspyr Announces Civ3 Complete & Civ4

[Brad Oliver]

as far as perspective, here's mine: I want a civ game where I can play on a large, accurate map of the Earth with the civs in their correct places. That's it. Don't care about multiplayer, don't care about fancy scenarios for WWII or the like.

I believe there are several mods and scenarios that start out on earth with accurate civ placement (and I think one or two ship with Mac C3C) - no need to edit your own if that's all you need.

 

[Brad Oliver]

The only place I've personally seen this is postings here by you and Brad; if Aspyr made the announcement let me know the url so I can go see what they actually said.

I work for Aspyr - consider what I said about the editor in the months prior to the C3C release to be an "announcement". If you want a URL, search this forum.

 

[MAS]

I have to grand you that a developer posting on a forum of some random fansite, however reliable, is difficult to call "an official announcement by the company."
And not an "effective means of communicating" at all, considering not every costumer will read this forum.

Based on that, the argument that Aspyr didn't make it clear that the editor would not be included still stands.


Oh, and, I know no one said anything hostile yet, but before we go there, I would like to mention; back in the old days of Civ3-Macsoft, Brad bothered to make a mac editor for version 1.21, and he bothered to make patch 1.29b. All this without to much support from his employer!

I haven't forgotten!

Curse on Aspyr all you want, but.....

 

[ChiefSparkY]

C3c for the Mac doesn't mention the editor on the box so there's no reason to think one is included. Mac Office doesn't contain everything the Windows version contains but it's made clear on the box what is in there.

Yes, it's a pity there's no editor but let's be thankful Conquests has finally made it to the Mac. And if you're not happy, then don't buy it and let the rest of us enjoy it!

 

[dojoboy]

Calling something complete when it clearly isn't is not a good business decision if you want repeat customers.

It all depends on what the definition of is is. I'm sure if the editor was a critical component for my enjoyment, I'd be disgruntled. My only attempt here is to frame discussion.

I actually saw a man fly over a building with a rocket pack back in the sixties. Given present technology flying green sheep with marsupial DNA are possible. As far as I know I can't buy either item at any price.

Okay, MacSoft ported 1.21g and the equivalent editor for the mac version of Civ3. When 1.29f was released for the PC, the PC editor also recieved a bump in features. MacSoft did not port 1.29f. Grumbling ensued. I'm sure I can go track down a post where I "went off" on MacSoft.

Enter a man named cracker who managed the CFC GOTMs. He enlisted a couple of us to help mac the GOTMs compatible for the mac version of Civ3, even while it was at 1.21g. It happened.

From the periphery, I observed a relationship develop between cracker and Brad, I assume from cracker's queries.

Day arrives that the mac verison recieves a 1.29 beta, provided by Brad Oliver - on his own time, for the community. There is even a 1.29b2. All unofficial. I personally know that MacSoft received a 1.29 FC for the mac version but sat on it. Why, I don't know.

Brad Oliver joins Aspyr. Therefore, he can no longer work on Civ3, even if he wanted to.

Now, fortune has shined on us in that Aspyr has the Civ3 mac porting rights. If it's been offered that a complete editor could be possible. I believe it. I don't expect it, but I believe it.

 

[dojoboy]

C3c for the Mac doesn't mention the editor on the box so there's no reason to think one is included. Mac Office doesn't contain everything the Windows version contains but it's made clear on the box what is in there.

Brilliant!

Now, where's my Guiness?

 

[Beamup]

If you don't want a C3C without the editor, don't buy it. It's that simple. Aspyr loses your business, they are duly "punished," and encouraged to provide editors in the future (if any such encouragement were necessary, which it isn't.) In this case it is not entirely unreasonable to gripe a bit - the product is, from your perspective, overpriced.

However, I have a sneaking suspicion that most of the complainers did indeed buy a copy. In that case, there are two possibilities. Either the game is worth $50 (or whatever you ended up paying) to you without the editor, or it is not. In the latter case, you wasted your money on something you knew at the time wasn't what you wanted, so you have nobody to blame but yourself. In the former case, you're complaining because Aspyr isn't selling a game that would be worth $80 (or whatever) to you for $50. Again, that's not a reasonable complaint.

Let's also keep in mind the fact that selling games is a business. Brad has previously stated, IIRC, that the vanilla 1.21 editor turned out to be a bigger project than the game itself. And the 1.29, much less Conquests, editors would've been much bigger than that. So producing the editor would cost Aspyr a LOT more, and wouldn't've been practical unless they could either bump the price (fat chance) or sell a lot more copies (given how well it's selling without, again, fat chance).

The bottom line is that Aspyr is selling what people want at a price people like (as demonstrated by the fact that so many of them are paying said price). Expecting them to give you more than that for free is unreasonable and illogical.

 

[Blue Monkey]

Nothing I have ever posted impunes Brad or his monumental efforts on our behalf. He is as much a victim of corporate policy as the rest of us. What is the point of telling those of us for whom the ability to create is important to shut up and enjoy what we've got? If you only had one restaurant in your town, and by corporate policy they didn't put meat in your hamburger, would you shut up and enjoy it, telling yourself that they didn't advertise that it had meat; or would you tell them and everyone else you could that they provided an inferior product?

 

[dojoboy]

Nothing I have ever posted impunes Brad or his monumental efforts on our behalf. He is as much a victim of corporate policy as the rest of us.

No, no, I was just trying to highlight that a future editor is possible.

 

[MAS]

Yes, it's a pity there's no editor but let's be thankful Conquests has finally made it to the Mac. And if you're not happy, then don't buy it and let the rest of us enjoy it!

Oh, don't be so harsh, If I have a complaint and people gave me a "not happy? then don't buy it!" kind of answer, I'd boil!

 

[Blue Monkey]

C3c for the Mac doesn't mention the editor on the box so there's no reason to think one is included.

I just set down the C3C PC and C3C Mac boxes to write this post. The PC box doesn't mention an editor. The PC box doesn't mention a printed manual. As to getting something for free - compare the prices of the two remarkably similar-looking packages (one of which has the added materials cost of two additional disks and a manual). I want to play Conquests on my Mac; of course I'm going to pay the going price. I'm enjoying the game immensely. I still don't have to be happy at getting less than people that prefer to use a PC. For any software, from any company.

 

[ChiefSparkY]

Oh, don't be so harsh, If I have a complaint and people gave me a "not happy? then don't buy it!" kind of answer, I'd boil!

I don't think I was being harsh! I think you've made your point now though - we're well aware there is no editor in the box (even though the box never promised one). I suspect polite emails to Aspyr would be a better course of action for you to ensure an editor with Civ4.

 

[MAS]

If you don't want a C3C ..<snip>..is unreasonable and illogical.

No, no, no,

However much I appreciate C3C for the mac, and thought it was worth paying what I did.
However much it is true that an editor was not economically justifiable.

You just can't sent people away with a "then don't buy it" kind of answer.

First, its crude, the kind of crude that makes it useful for forum-trolls to start flamewars with! (There is a psychological switch activated by this kind of answer, making people very pissed)
second, not buying it could cause Aspyr to conclude there is no business in porting at all.
Third, Its not like there is direct competition, like all works of art, whoever holds the copy right holds the monopoly!

I mean, what if I told you: "if you don't like complaints, then don't read this thread!" Its the same kind of answer!


That said, though, I think we can conclude this discussion: The complaints have been heared, the horse has been beaten to death. Here is the situation the way it is, we can't make more of it!

EDIT: @ChiefSparkY, You posted while I was typing this reply. I was trying to be a mediator. I agree with your last statement.
Just want to point out though, that I think its reasoneble to think Mac C3C is pretty much the same as the PC version, And Microsoft makes it clear Mac office does more than office for Windows, I don't think you can compare this with the office situation anyway.

 

[Beamup]

First, its crude, the kind of crude that makes it useful for forum-trolls to start flamewars with! (There is a psychological switch activated by this kind of answer, making people very pissed)

It's also true.

second, not buying it could cause Aspyr to conclude there is no business in porting at all.

And if people don't want to buy the products, there isn't.

Third, Its not like there is direct competition, like all works of art, whoever holds the copy right holds the monopoly!

Only true if you assume that there is only one game available. In fact, the games market is fairly competitive.

It's basic economics 101. The sort of thing that really ought to be required courses in high school.

 

[Blue Monkey]

Beamup, your arguments seem to me to fall short of being convincing. I can buy coffee at 7-11 because it's the only thing available at the time, and still have a legitimate complaint that it's not as good as it can be, especially if it compares itself to a superior product, which Aspyr has done by it's packaging if nothing else (I understand a little about the semiotics of marketing, having taught it in graduate seminars at Columbia University*). If we only buy Mac software that's perfect the market will get progressively smaller, not larger. And saying that the Mac game market is competitive is somewhat specious. The market includes everything from auction bridge simulators to Halo.
* Your last sentence starts to border on an ad hominem attack. (added in edit) I probably would have been satisfied with presenting my point of view pages ago, If it hadn't been implied that I'm childish and should have had a better high school education.

 

[Brad Oliver]

I have to grand you that a developer posting on a forum of some random fansite, however reliable, is difficult to call "an official announcement by the company."
And not an "effective means of communicating" at all, considering not every costumer will read this forum.

Based on that, the argument that Aspyr didn't make it clear that the editor would not be included still stands.

What would you have us do? Send out a press release? Not everyone will read those. Should we put a big starburst on the back on the box that says "No Editor included"? That's just wacky, since no editor is mentioned as being included.

I'll repeat what I said earlier: if the editor is crucial to your buying or not buying Civ3, and you have even the slightest inkling that it might not be included, then common sense dictates you ask Aspyr. Yes, it's frustrating that the editor isn't included but I maintain that it's a pretty big stretch to claim we weren't communicating about it effectively when we were answering e-mails and forum queries about it pre-release.

 

[Brad Oliver]

He is as much a victim of corporate policy as the rest of us.

At the risk of sticking my neck on the chopping block, I don't believe this is an accurate characterization. As much as I'd like to see the editor, I feel leaving it out (and making no promises for it ever being released) was the right choice. I argued against it during development planning based on my experience doing the MacSoft editor. I feel that's an easily-justified decision.

 

[Brad Oliver]

I suspect polite emails to Aspyr would be a better course of action for you to ensure an editor with Civ4.

Actually, it'd be a waste of your time. ;-) The editor is built into the game itself so it comes along for free.

 

[MAS]

I suppose Aspyr employs someone skilled in determining if addressing a certain complaint is worth it for the company. And if so, to what extend!

I'm aware that you can't always have it your way.

But the 2 complaints:
"The difference between the PC version and the mac port wasn't made clear enough."
"it lacks an editor"
Even though solving them may not be worth it, are not unjustified.

Continuing about it is not going to change a thing though.
I suggest we bring this discussion to an end.
This for the well-being of this forum community!

 

[Beamup]

Beamup, your arguments seem to me to fall short of being convincing. I can buy coffee at 7-11 because it's the only thing available at the time, and still have a legitimate complaint that it's not as good as it can be, especially if it compares itself to a superior product, which Aspyr has done by it's packaging if nothing else (I understand a little about the semiotics of marketing, having taught it in graduate seminars at Columbia University*). If we only buy Mac software that's perfect the market will get progressively smaller, not larger. And saying that the Mac game market is competitive is somewhat specious. The market includes everything from auction bridge simulators to Halo.

Who said anything about only buying Mac software that's perfect? Only buy software you think is worth the price. Completely different thing. Also, pointing out that there's a wide variety of products on the market doesn't make it any less competitive. Even in the strategy genre there's choice - including the choice to not buy at all.

And as for your analogy, again, if you bought the coffee, you must believe that it's worth the price. So again, the only grounds for complaint is that it's not underpriced.

* Your last sentence starts to border on an ad hominem attack. (added in edit) I probably would have been satisfied with presenting my point of view pages ago, If it hadn't been implied that I'm childish and should have had a better high school education.

Sorry you feel that way. The comment was not directed at you specifically. And, rereading it, I can see how it could be interpreted that way. Please allow me to clarify. What I was referring to as basic econ 101 is this.

The principal incentives to improve a product are (1) the ability to charge an increased price without losing too many sales and (2) making more sales, now or in the future (including of other products due to improved brand recognition/reputation). Such incentives must be sufficiently pronounced to outweigh the disincentive of spending a lot of money to improve the product.

(1) is not an option in the games industry, as prices are remarkably standardized. Given the success of the product so far, and the history of such issues, it appears highly unlikely that (2) offers much benefit to offset the greatly increased cost.

Hence, the only way an editor would appear is if Aspyr were convinced that it would lead to enough additional sales of C3C or other products to pay for the additional expense. Which means not buying it if you aren't satisfied with the product and the price. If enough people feel that way, it will be made clear that porting the editor would be profitable and it will happen. If not, then it's unreasonable to expect Aspyr to go to a great deal of extra expense simply out of the goodness of their hearts - it is, after all, a business.

Put another way, buying the product and then complaining gives nobody any incentive to change their behavior, so it makes absolutely no sense to expect such a change. Not buying the product unless it meets your standards does provide such an incentive - and the strongest incentive a single individual can give.

And yes, I believe anyone should be able to analyze situations in this sort of manner. And that anyone who can't has received a defective education (being able to but choosing not to is another, distinct, issue). Trouble is, that includes almost everybody - I certainly didn't learn any of it in school. But having an economics professor for a father does tend to result in picking up a thing or two.