Asset file hinting at future and/or cut content

[RedCourtJester]

We're not seriously comparing actual empires, kingdoms, and tribal polities of ethnic groups like the Maya and the Iroquois to a pirate republic that existed for only 12 years on a tiny island with a population smaller than most English towns right?

Gran Colombia existed for 12 years. So too roughly did Alexander's empire before it was divided up after his death. Napoleon's "French Empires" only lasted 10 and 18 years. Corvinus' "empire" declined and fell apart after 36 years. And the Golden Age of Piracy lasted at least a good 80 years, notwithstanding centuries of earlier piracy in the region.

What matters more to me is whether or not a "civ" was large and impactful enough to affect that region's culture indefinitely. I think it's a decent choice for an exploration civ for the Caribbean if we the devs were already planning Haiti or Cuba, and couldn't justify the Taino as more than an antiquity reconstruction.

Also, to your Barbary States, I think an exploration "Morocco" civ is pretty likely at this point between Sayyida and Ibn, as well as the Ottomans being a natural modern progression point.

 

[TheGrayFox]

Resources are not wasted as for those people they are going in right place.

We'll have to agree to disagree. I don't think pirate republics are the right place to dedicate resources when we're literally missing England, Aztecs, Zulu, etc, etc and the UI looks like it was made by interns

 

[TheGrayFox]

Gran Colombia existed for 12 years. So too roughly did Alexander's empire before it was divided up after his death. Napoleon's "French Empires" only lasted 10 and 18 years. Corvinus' "empire" declined and fell apart after 36 years. And the Golden Age of Piracy lasted at least a good 80 years, notwithstanding centuries of earlier piracy in the region.

What matters more to me is whether or not a "civ" was large and impactful enough to affect that region's culture indefinitely. I think it's a decent choice for an exploration civ for the Caribbean if we the devs were already planning Haiti or Cuba, and couldn't justify the Taino as more than an antiquity reconstruction.

Gran Colombia was a state of several millions of and direct predessors to several modern-nation state in South America. Nassau was smaller than most English towns..... Come on you're not seriously comparing Napeleon's French Empire to the Nassau Republic right?

Firaxis wants to represent the Golden age of Piracy, sure! Do it through events or the crisis system. Nassau Republic really doesn't deserve a civ slot though

 

[tman2000]

Yeah, that's sad news. Let's hope that at least they're planning to add more content to the previous Ages or add a Medieval Age. But, most importantly, let's hope this 4th Age doesn't come with a whole new set of civilizations.

I kinda think a "USA" and "USSR" and "Egyptian Republic" and "Singapore" and "Modern Japan" and "CCP" and "European Union" and "UK" kind of all make sense as civs honestly.

 

[tman2000]

That is what I was thinking. Either that or a placeholder name.

Watch Black Sails. Pirate Republic as a civ is totally awesome.

 

[tman2000]

Besides the Ottomans in the middle, this very much sounds like a naval-themed pack.

Ottomans are the only "non-European" power to field a legit Age of Sail navy. The one exception is Japan who had William Addams build them a few caravels but then their closed country policy burned these. Of course, I understand Turkey by technicality, tradition, whatever is essentially counted as a European power, it's maybe a "non-Western" power as the "Orient" Express goes to Istanbul.

So they are a non-Christian Age of Sail power, so they certainly have naval pedigree. I mean, even Russia just barely, due to the Peter the Great, gets in on the Age of Sail thing.

I think the Marathas even the Mughals were *this* close to building sailing ships. The Chinese should have and could have, but were completely smelling their own farts on how they had everything to give and no reason to take from foreigners.

 

[RedCourtJester]

Gran Colombia was a state of several millions of and direct predessors to several modern-nation state in South America. Nassau was smaller than most English towns..... Come on you're not seriously comparing Napeleon's French Empire to the Nassau Republic right?

Firaxis wants to represent the Golden age of Piracy, sure! Do it through events or the crisis system. Nassau Republic really doesn't deserve a civ slot though

Eh I don't disagree that the actual "polity" was small, but the larger culture/phenomenon was bigger. Plus, I think it is going to be a building block for other Caribbean civ paths.

It's coming earlier than I would have liked, but I'm not all that surprised at it appearing in a game like VII. It will make a lot of sense as connective tissue in the New World, serving as a precursor for a modern Cuba/Haiti, America, and imo even Mexico and Brazil. The way the devs are haphazardly tossing in little guys like Iceland, Bulgaria, Nepal, does not make me worry much about "slots;" it's less a matter of whether the game starts to approach a more robust lineup, so much as when and will it be too drawn out as to amount to exploiting our goodwill.

Watch Black Sails. Pirate Republic as a civ is totally awesome.

Watch Our Flag Means Death, too. Totally fudged the historicity but you get gay Blackbeard played by Taika Waititi.

Ottomans are the only "non-European" power to field a legit Age of Sail navy. The one exception is Japan who had William Addams build them a few caravels but then their closed country policy burned these. Of course, I understand Turkey by technicality, tradition, whatever is essentially counted as a European power, it's maybe a "non-Western" power as the "Orient" Express goes to Istanbul.

So they are a non-Christian Age of Sail power, so they certainly have naval pedigree. I mean, even Russia just barely, due to the Peter the Great, gets in on the Age of Sail thing.

Given that they didn't really expand until the 1500s, and the Middle East will already struggle for large modern powers to progress toward, I will be very surprised if Ottomans are put into exploration era. Which is a bit of a shame, but also I'm expecting "straddling" civs to tend to choose the era they were more dominant in. It's why I'm not discarding exploration era Silla just yet, as Unified Silla could very comfortably be pushed into exploration era.

 

[tman2000]

No, People who rob people at sea are not a civilization, they're just criminals. They've existed throughout all of time, there were literally pirates in Rome. they're not some nation-state or an ethnic group and the the republic in question barely qualified as a state. . They're just criminals, most connected in absolutely no way other then profession. Comparing them to actual state, polities, tribes, etc is just so wrong.

There are states where piracy played an important role cultural. The Barbary States, England, etc.. If Firaxis wanted to add those I don't think anyone would complain but the Nassau Republic and Blackbeard is just quite a reach

Pirates were a literal cultural and political precursor to both 1776 and the Bolivarian revolution. They were a rejection of continental power, and in a sense they were a repudiation of proto-Capitalism. There were not merely robbers. Even when they acted immorally, they presaged intellectual movements like Foucault's rejection of state morality. They are considered essential to, for instance, gay literature and the rejection of civilized, heteronormative behavior within the paradigm of civilization as that paradigm encountered a new world at the same time it grappled with early modernization.

Saying the pirate republic doesn't matter is like saying 1848 didn't matter.

 

[TheGrayFox]

Pirates were a literal cultural and political precursor to both 1776 and the Bolivarian revolution. They were a rejection of continental power, and in a sense they were a repudiation of proto-Capitalism. There were not merely robbers. Even when they acted immorally, they presaged intellectual movements like Foucault's rejection of state morality. They are considered essential to, for instance, gay literature and the rejection of civilized, heteronormative behavior within the paradigm of civilization as that paradigm encountered a new world at the same time it grappled with early modernization.

Saying the pirate republic doesn't matter is like saying 1848 didn't matter.

Please don't explain pirates to me like I'm not aware of history....

Yes, Pirates and the crime of maritime piracy were played a very prominent part in colonial history... No that doesn't mean Nassau deserve a slot as a full fledged civilization. Again we're talking about a polity that existed for 12 years and ultimately was smaller than most English towns. No one is arguing that the pirate republic didn't matter at all, however you are definitely overexaggerating it's role in history . You're acting like it was the birth place for freedom, democracy, and the enlightenment when in reality Nassau was a backwater that was simple one of many havens for the highwaymen of the sea in existence.

 

[tman2000]

Pirates were a literal cultural and political precursor to both 1776 and the Bolivarian revolution. They were a rejection of continental power, and in a sense they were a repudiation of proto-Capitalism. There were not merely robbers. Even when they acted immorally, they presaged intellectual movements like Foucault's rejection of state morality. They are considered essential to, for instance, gay literature and the rejection of civilized, heteronormative behavior within the paradigm of civilization as that paradigm encountered a new world at the same time it grappled with early modernization.

Saying the pirate republic doesn't matter is like saying 1848 didn't matter.

Let me clarify.
Everything about modernism and post-modernism was encoded into Western DNA and the exploration era was the great pandora's box that, over four epic centuries of history, allowed those traits to explode in a marvelous and multi-varied fashion. The Pirate Republic was maybe possibly more influential than we think, but probably not too influential. It was however, somehow, a spark that encapsulated almost everything that Western modernism and post-modernism would do. It was the DNA expressing in a great bonfire, and early.

Entrepreneurship and adventure. Henry Avery's circumnavigation was nothing short of epic, and his sudden arrival at New Providence and the basically beach party that declared the Pirate Republic was equally epic. In the end, even Vanderbilt was called a pirate for running ferries that the state bureaucrats frowned upon. Vanderbilt was banned from running a ferry so he just had guys announce to customer looking people to walk one mile down shore and pick up the ferry there.
Post-modernism. Pirates rejected civilized morality, but held to a code of fellowship and contract rights and usually treated with victims fairly and business like. They certainly rejected sexual and other forms of morality.
Rejection of continental power. They perceived the seas and the New World as free of European hegemony and it was part of their ethos
Multi-culturalism, anti-racism. Not much needs to be said.
Female pirates.
The American Man. Teach played the gentleman and it didn't suit him, the world he belonged to didn't tolerate gentlemen.

I don't think anyone believed the pirates were anything other than marauders, but they may have had a subconscious influence. Either way, they presaged the entire modern world that the new world would create.

 

[tman2000]

Please don't explain pirates to me like I'm not aware of history....

Yes, Pirates and the crime of maritime piracy were played a very prominent part in colonial history... No that doesn't mean Nassau deserve a slot as a full fledged civilization. Again we're talking about a polity that existed for 12 years and ultimately was smaller than most English towns. No one is arguing that the pirate republic didn't matter at all, however you are definitely overexaggerating it's role in history . You're acting like it was the birth place for freedom, democracy, and the enlightenment when in reality Nassau was a backwater that was simple one of many havens for the highwaymen of the sea in existence.

Speaking of Foucault by inference, check this out:

"The idea of pirates as ‘enemies of all’, contributed to the emergence of modern international law"

Interview: Dr Richard Blakemore talks to us about pirate history, myth and his new book, Enemies of All: The Rise and Fall of Pirates.

histfest.substack.com

Civilization created the archetype of pirate as an antithesis to define what modern, globalized civilization literally meant in the age of exploration and beyond. By dialectic contrast, the pirate represents the entire rejection of the pre-modern thesis of civilization. Therefore, the pirate encapsulates the entirety of modernity and post-modernity as I have described.

This is why Vanderbilt was called a pirate. He was too modern. Get it?

I didn't think pirates were important per se, at first, just very interesting and definitional. Now that I understand them in a Foucauldian sense as the antithesis of early modern "civilized-ness" they're quintessentially relevant to the age of exploration.

 

[Xefjord]

I feel like we are kind of backwards applying modern politics to a historical group here, and while some of these may be interesting topics to explore, I don't think they are super relevant to if Pirates qualify as a civilization in this specific case. I think we are just gonna have to agree to disagree between a few of us, as I think pirates are cool, and they don't bother me, whereas others I think have a mental barrier that will never let them be happy with a pirate nation that isn't the Barbary Coast. That's fine, we both have the ability to voice our thoughts then the devs can decide from there. But it does feel like some of the arguments on this pirate topic are starting to get a bit circular.

 

[TheGrayFox]

Let me clarify.
Everything about modernism and post-modernism was encoded into Western DNA and the exploration era was the great pandora's box that, over four epic centuries of history, allowed those traits to explode in a marvelous and multi-varied fashion. The Pirate Republic was maybe possibly more influential than we think, but probably not too influential. It was however, somehow, a spark that encapsulated almost everything that Western modernism and post-modernism would do. It was the DNA expressing in a great bonfire, and early.

Entrepreneurship and adventure. Henry Avery's circumnavigation was nothing short of epic, and his sudden arrival at New Providence and the basically beach party that declared the Pirate Republic was equally epic. In the end, even Vanderbilt was called a pirate for running ferries that the state bureaucrats frowned upon. Vanderbilt was banned from running a ferry so he just had guys announce to customer looking people to walk one mile down shore and pick up the ferry there.
Post-modernism. Pirates rejected civilized morality, but held to a code of fellowship and contract rights and usually treated with victims fairly and business like. They certainly rejected sexual and other forms of morality.
Rejection of continental power. They perceived the seas and the New World as free of European hegemony and it was part of their ethos
Multi-culturalism, anti-racism. Not much needs to be said.
Female pirates.
The American Man. Teach played the gentleman and it didn't suit him, the world he belonged to didn't tolerate gentlemen.

I don't think anyone believed the pirates were anything other than marauders, but they may have had a subconscious influence. Either way, they presaged the entire modern world that the new world would create.

Okay I understand your position even if I'm still going to respectfully disagree. My undergrad focus was on colonial history, so I've taken courses on the Golden Age of Piracy. I don't think many historians would make the argument that pirates were the "precursor" to 1776 or revolutions against Spanish rule. Which isn't to say that pirates, the golden age of piracy, and the Nassau Republic weren't important parts of history or worth learning about. Pirates were cool and would be a fun addition to the game, even if I don't nessecarily agree that they should be a full fledged civ. I think they'd be better represented through events, crises, and/or game mechanics.

I see what you mean about some of the idea we've come to associate with pirates and their code predating the mainstream modern and post-modern trend in the West and that is an interesting discussions but I think these trends devoloped seperately across the west and that pirates bare little responsibility for why we have gender equality, multi-culturalism, anti-racist activism, and the like today.

 

[Riconatic]

I feel like we are kind of backwards applying modern politics to a historical group here, and while some of these may be interesting topics to explore, I don't think they are super relevant to if Pirates qualify as a civilization in this specific case. I think we are just gonna have to agree to disagree between a few of us, as I think pirates are cool, and they don't bother me, whereas others I think have a mental barrier that will never let them be happy with a pirate nation that isn't the Barbary Coast. That's fine, we both have the ability to voice our thoughts then the devs can decide from there. But it does feel like some of the arguments on this pirate topic are starting to get a bit circular.

Devs should never go anywhere because of "loudest complaints" of any kind. First they should go with their vision, second from feedback they should go what they think majority thinks.

I have no idea at this point what majority thinks about this or any new leader/civ inclusions.

Edit: But it is clear that this is vision (of someone in) Firaxis at least. Otherwise pirates would not be in the files.

 

[evonannoredars]

The idea of a civ 'deserving' to be in the game or that there should be a pecking order about which civs should be added before others is really odd to me. It's a sometimes silly strategy game, it's not some prestigious showcase of the world's greatest cultures and empires ever where they're 'wasting' time and resources by including anyone else. Sure there's things they should prioritise first for gameplay reasons (eg. more south american civs!) but that's an argument I'd direct the dlcs as a whole, not just my least favourite choices.

 

[Smegger213]

Pirate republic and Edward Teach leader? Well, I would be stoked up for that lol.

 

[Vahnstad]

i fail to see the issue, especially considering you’ve called her “politically motivated” (??) in this thread. she’s one of the most influential maori people ever, especially in more recent times (where they’ve been relatively more united, and hold a lot of political sway in New Zealand/Aotearoa).

I did not say that. That is someone else.

 

[stealth_nsk]

But it is clear that this is vision (of someone in) Firaxis at least. Otherwise pirates would not be in the files.

We still don't know if it's a civ at all. The file is a mix of different entities - civs, leaders and so on. It could be a crisis, for example.

EDIT: And it totally could be a discarded experiment

 

[Vahnstad]

I have been looking at maps of 1 AD Europe and it does seem like the Danes as a tribe did exist during this time. They just didn't get big until the Viking age. So I do think an antiquity age Danes could be acceptable. We could have a Norway in the Exploration age if we wanted another Exploration age Civ, or a Denmark in contrast to Danes. Norse is OK. I just want /something/ for antiquity Germanic peoples.

Norse -> antiquity

Denmark -> exploration
Norway -> exploration
Iceland -> exploration
Normans -> exploration

Sweden -> modern (obviously)

To me it feels if it is at the detriment of another civ, that it would be Norway but i would not be concerned about no other Scandinavian civs eventually making it in. Also because Iceland is the most closely related to Norway anyways.

 

[dawmz]

I hope that there will be a way to connect landlocked navigable rivers to the ocean eventually. It SUCKS finding a good river only for it to not be utilized since it goes nowhere.