[BTS] Astronomy - "Bulbing" or "Libing"?

[Tobiyogi]

Hey-ho,

in my current game, I could use Astronomy fairly soon and so I wonder what is the better choice: double bulbing or choosing it via Lib?
I could also use CoL, but that would definitely cancel the road towards Astro, right? (because the next bulbs will be Philo, paper, Edu....)
So what is the advantage at all in bulbing Astro? If chances are good to win Lib, why not simply get it this way? It's an expensive tech that would consume 2 GS, and as long as my tech rate is strong enough to get Edu while only consuming 1 GS....

 

[sampsa]

in my current game, I could use Astronomy fairly soon and so I wonder what is the better choice: double bulbing or choosing it via Lib?
I could also use CoL, but that would definitely cancel the road towards Astro, right? (because the next bulbs will be Philo, paper, Edu....)

It doesn't really cancel astro bulb line for good. After philo, bulb path is back to mach-compass-optics-astro if you don't have civil service.

So what is the advantage at all in bulbing Astro? If chances are good to win Lib, why not simply get it this way? It's an expensive tech that would consume 2 GS, and as long as my tech rate is strong enough to get Edu while only consuming 1 GS....

Well, in order to win lib you need to tech CoL, CS, philo, paper, education and liberalism (~10k ?). Especially latter three are techs that don't really do much. Well, at least there is Oxford, but it's not useful in most games IMO. Astro on the other hand, assuming not all AI on same landmass is a very beneficial tech.

Not sure if I understand what you mean when saying that bulbing astro costs 2 GS but with strong tech rate edu costs 1. Winning liberalism usually costs 3 GS. Of course you can also do it without bulbs, but it's just slower, and slower is bad.

 

[earthy]

Astro gives trade routes & resource trading which really boost your economy. You want that ASAP, and it's a lot faster without libbing it. As for COL, if you want COL without opening the philo bulb just take the polytheism route and avoid meditation. If I'm isolated with stone and tons of food I often do that. Poly-Priesthood-COL, everywhere with food starts running as many rep specialists as it can. You also want early optics in isolation to start trading techs, but once you get machinery you can't really bulb towards lib anymore unless I'm mistaken. Assuming you have paper, you can bulb education but after that it'll want to bulb printing press.

 

[Tobiyogi]

Thanks for the further explanations

@sampsa
I usually slow-tech paper, the smaller part of Edu + Lib, and I do bulb Philo and the 1700 beaker part of Edu. If there is enough time and my tech rate is strong, I don't want to waste a GS for 1200 something beakers. But after all, it is 2 GS anyway, just like for Astro.
I didn't consider Philo to be a pure lib-supporting tech but having a value on its own. Same for Edu. But, I must reconsider that as I am coming down from a bad habit of instantly building Universities in my cities: not only that they cost 200H, they also emerge in an Era, where more science is not really needed (bad habit comes maybe from having played too many PHI guys). So, the value of Edu is debattable (good trade bait though) and the question, if all the beakers you put into Lib eventually equal the free tech you are getting from, must be posed. I remember that somewhere in the forum, the same question was asked for Oracle techs (if you eventually choose a relatively cheap tech like HBR that you could have researched with the same effort).
Another habit (good one?) is to beeline CS, I am just in love with Bureau, it makes my gameplay a bit rigid, but still cannot imagine a better civic. So delaying CS for Astro would require some deeper calculating if that would benefit me in the given situation.

@earthy
I don't remember ever having bulbed Lib (maybe once by accident). So machinery is the decisive factor? (too many China games with Cho-Ko-Nu probably....). And for Philo, you go straight Poly-PH-CoL, that means besides Meditaiton, you also avoid Aest/Lit etc...?

 

[Tobiyogi]

I will also watch one of Lain's Iso games carefully, that should answer still more questions.

 

[earthy]

With compass but no machinery you can bulb lib. As soon as you research machinery, optics bulb will be priority, and then astro. Aesth/Literature I generally don't grab in isolation. It's possible the NE could save some time getting scientists out but I don't think if it's worth the detour unless maybe you have marble. Could be wrong about NE, just personal observations. Philo I'll only go for if it's semi-iso and a neighbor spread a religion to me, but even then I think you need to get the religion pretty early to make it worth delaying astro. Especially as a non spiritual leader where you'll need at least two turns of anarchy to get into the religion+pacifism.

As for Bureau, it is a really good civic if you have a nice capital. The problem is as soon as you research CS the astro bulb gets screwed up. Paper will be the next bulb, and if you research that either education or printing press come next(depending if you have machinery, which we desperately need by that point for optics). Trading for CS after making contact is probably the best option for tech pace, but what I usually find myself doing is teching it when the astro bulb is open but I'm waiting on my 3rd scientist. My caravels will be travelling around meeting people, I'll have one scientist waiting in my city for the astro bulb, and my other one will be coming in maybe 4-5 turns while I'm teching CS in say 6 turns. GS pops and I double bulb astro, then finish CS on the same turn or next and switch into bureau.

 

[Tobiyogi]

my current game is something in between (semi-iso, spi leader, some trading is possible), astro still has priority to enhance the trading but I also see the benefit in caste/slavery switching and in using CS (with a very good capitol) wondering if it would make up for the loss of an early Astro. however, in a pure isolation, i see the urgency to rush towards astro

 

[sampsa]

I didn't consider Philo to be a pure lib-supporting tech but having a value on its own. Same for Edu. But, I must reconsider that as I am coming down from a bad habit of instantly building Universities in my cities: not only that they cost 200H, they also emerge in an Era, where more science is not really needed (bad habit comes maybe from having played too many PHI guys).

Yeah, philo is a good tech because pacifism is awesome, but universities are pretty meh (unless PHI), as 200 is a lot. Indeed at that era you should often think about expanding via war, not building -buildings.

Yes liberalism can be bulbed, that's usually the 3rd bulb. It doesn't matter though how many bulbs you use, the -cost is the same.

While CS is a nice tech, sometimes it can be postponed. After you finish your NC Asoka game, check out mine in that thread. I certainly got a bit lucky with GP generation (always got the one I wanted) and trades, but the result was outstanding, if I may say so.

 

[Tobiyogi]

As I have discovered the other AI's and can almost see the whole landmass, I can easily have a look at your thread these days. I expect a shockingly early Astro date and a cannon attack versus warriors