Blitz Spearman
Warlord
At Immortal I give up only if I don't have any way of generating faith apart from Shrines and Temples. Even 3 Gold/Silver or 2 Stone tiles are enough sometimes, specially if going Liberty to get the Shrines up earlier.
At what difficulty do you give up on religion?
- Thread starter steveg700
- Start date
Kosis
Chieftain
been playing on epic speed and have been having trouble getting a religion. It's not my SOP to go piety, but on an archipelago having that 'god of the sea' (+1 production from Fishing boats) is really nice. Give me that, tithe (+1g per 4 followers) and holy scriptures (+25% speed, +50% with Printing Press) and I'm pretty happy.
My problem is this: having started several warlord, epic speed games, I found myself consistently being beaten to pantheons and religions, even when I was teching straight for pottery. Having several pantheons founded before turn 25? one of them on turn 10? The first one, maybe, if Boudica is in the game.
Then having several religions founded around turn 90 just should not be possible. One maybe, if the AI lucked out and got several 'faith' results from ruins. 3-4 religions? when no-one has taken ANY faith producing pantheons, and stonehenge is still unbuilt?
Naturally, having turned my diff down to warlord for a 'nice relaxing game', I've found this to be quite upsetting.
Has anyone else had this happen?
My problem is this: having started several warlord, epic speed games, I found myself consistently being beaten to pantheons and religions, even when I was teching straight for pottery. Having several pantheons founded before turn 25? one of them on turn 10? The first one, maybe, if Boudica is in the game.
Then having several religions founded around turn 90 just should not be possible. One maybe, if the AI lucked out and got several 'faith' results from ruins. 3-4 religions? when no-one has taken ANY faith producing pantheons, and stonehenge is still unbuilt?
Naturally, having turned my diff down to warlord for a 'nice relaxing game', I've found this to be quite upsetting.
Has anyone else had this happen?
If you don't start piety as your opener, you'll be heavily backtracked into getting a religion compared to the other civs. From what I have seen a good chunk of civs like to open with piety now that it can be used in the ancient era. I usually manage to found a religion on everything up to and including King, although I assume that Emperor and above makes things trickier if you want to be the dominant religion. You have to put in much more effort if you want to spread it around to your neighbors and the world at large, particularly if they are throwing out missionaries and Great Prophets.
I haven't seen anything that suggests getting a religion on higher difficulties is a futile venture. In my opinion it is always good to have some sort of religion going so that you can get its benefits. Pantheons tend to be quite strong in the early game so I like to build shrines first thing after putting down a new city. With Organized religion in the piety tree and any faith-giving unique component, they can start racking up serious faith and you should get your religion in no time.
Faith is probably the only thing that stays consistent throughout the difficulty levels. At least, I haven't seen faith costs go up very much while I was moving up the chain. You gain and spend about the same amount. In any case, founding and spreading a religion is something that you must think about at the start of the game if you want it to be a significant part of your round. You cannot expect to be successful with your religion if it is an after-thought. It takes some sort of planning to ensure that it gets around everywhere and stays in place.
Maybe I'll think differently once I move up to Emperor and Immortal, but I've never skimped on religion throughout most of my sessions and I consider it a fundamental part of my overall strategy. I don't think I could get by like I do without one.
I haven't seen anything that suggests getting a religion on higher difficulties is a futile venture. In my opinion it is always good to have some sort of religion going so that you can get its benefits. Pantheons tend to be quite strong in the early game so I like to build shrines first thing after putting down a new city. With Organized religion in the piety tree and any faith-giving unique component, they can start racking up serious faith and you should get your religion in no time.
Faith is probably the only thing that stays consistent throughout the difficulty levels. At least, I haven't seen faith costs go up very much while I was moving up the chain. You gain and spend about the same amount. In any case, founding and spreading a religion is something that you must think about at the start of the game if you want it to be a significant part of your round. You cannot expect to be successful with your religion if it is an after-thought. It takes some sort of planning to ensure that it gets around everywhere and stays in place.
Maybe I'll think differently once I move up to Emperor and Immortal, but I've never skimped on religion throughout most of my sessions and I consider it a fundamental part of my overall strategy. I don't think I could get by like I do without one.
In the way you describe your game I would not have focused on getting a religion unless there was a religious city state nearby or a natural wonder you could settle near. Started in a isolated situation requires you to focus your gold more prudently. If you don't have adequate access to free faith then the upkeep of religious buildings will be a burden on your empire if you're late to the patheon party.
It's hard to get much in the way of faith generation in a tall empire from buildings alone. The usual way to pump it up is via a faith generating pantheon. If you can't leverage one of those, than your options are to build faith-generating wonders (though these come at bad times and seem to be popular with the AI), get Organized Religion from the Piety tree (Probably not worth the sopols for most strategies), or to get more cities. Planting small cities to claim territory/resources or capturing enemy cities gives you an opportunity to build more shrines and temples to increase faith output.
Religious buildings from follower beliefs can also bolster your faith production, but if your faith isn't good to begin with, you're unlikely to found a religion with those beliefs (the AI really likes them) and so will be at the mercy of which AI decides to proselytize you for gaining access to them.
Basically, there's no surefire way. Part of being successful in Civ, though, is being flexible enough to alter your strategy to take advantage of opportunities created by the AI or shore up weaknesses in your position. You might get the impression that a tall Tradition strategy involves getting to 4 cities and then never ever founding or capturing a new one. In reality, you might need to plop down a 5th or 6th city to claim a vital resource or block off a critical choke point on a rival's invasion path. You might need to take cities away from another civ in order to slow them down. If you follow that up with shrines and temples, that could be enough to squeeze out an extra great person in the late game. Maybe those cities you took already have Mosques, Pagodas, or Monasteries, and so will add even more to your faith production.
TheMarshmallowBear
Benelovent Chieftain of the Ursu Kingdom
It might be also who are your enemies, fi you rolled a game with little religion-ores then chances are you have a good enough chance
MadDjinn played a India game and he managed to get a religion AND Stonehenge.
MadDjinn played a India game and he managed to get a religion AND Stonehenge.
I don't know how much faith per turn you're looking for, but in a 4 city empire you can get at least +20 fpt (4 shrines +4 temples + grand temple). It might not look that much but after 200 turn that make enough for 3 great people.
Also if you manage to get one of the few world wonder who give faith and/or allied with religious city state it can make for a good amount in the end.
But granted that would still not compete with a wide empire, but a tall empire should not need great people faith buying than a wide empire...
on emperor, I have on the majority of occasions (if I see there is still room for 1 religion) got my religion on the Hagia Sophia and the free prophet without having to build a single shrine all game)
If you delay your expansion you can finish your grand temple right after that and then at least your religion should be able to hold its own. But many games I'll have to "borrow" other civs religion; at least without an official religion you are free (if you care to make the effort) to choose different religions for different cities for optimal performance.
If you are going tell "divine inspiration" helps greatly. (if you are a wonder hog late game like I am the wonders will end up generating a lot of faith; and to me faith is not so useful pre-industrial era anyway)
If you delay your expansion you can finish your grand temple right after that and then at least your religion should be able to hold its own. But many games I'll have to "borrow" other civs religion; at least without an official religion you are free (if you care to make the effort) to choose different religions for different cities for optimal performance.
If you are going tell "divine inspiration" helps greatly. (if you are a wonder hog late game like I am the wonders will end up generating a lot of faith; and to me faith is not so useful pre-industrial era anyway)
Here's a good twist in giving up on Religion. I got an early religion and chose Cathedrals and Pagodas (first time I've done that). I built them in my three cities and then comes a Hindu swarm from Indonesia, converted my city (one so far) - which now allows me to build a Mosque as well. I'm giving up on keeping my religion since I got what I wanted out of it (except for Grand Temple) but getting all three religious buildings is pretty cool for a non-Byzantium civ.
Also depends on the map size you play. On standard up to immortal religion shouldn't be a problem. I regularly get my own religion on immortal.
On large, and especially huge, even on emperor a religion can get dicey if you didn't find a ruin with faith or at least two maybe three faith CS. The AI almost always start faster than you and will pick up faith ruins really quick, and if you're not one of the civs that start off with a faith boost (Celts, Ethiopia, etc) you are in a long slog trying to found that 6th or 7th religion requiring 140 faith....
On large, and especially huge, even on emperor a religion can get dicey if you didn't find a ruin with faith or at least two maybe three faith CS. The AI almost always start faster than you and will pick up faith ruins really quick, and if you're not one of the civs that start off with a faith boost (Celts, Ethiopia, etc) you are in a long slog trying to found that 6th or 7th religion requiring 140 faith....
I usually try to get a pantheon, but in most cases founding a religion requires a lot of luck on Immortal, like getting a lot of religious city states nearby that want you to barb hunt or something, or being fortunate with a pantheon that generates a lot of faith for you. Or of course beelining for Stonehenge.
If you can get tithe, I think spreading your religion early when missionaries are cheap is a very effective strategy. Eventually missionaries become expensive, nearly to the point of a GP, and they became a very inefficient use of faith. They simply aren't strong enough to justify the cost, especially when you're trying to flip a city. Great Prophets completely remove opposing religion's and convert many more citizens, on top of having more uses. They eventually become extremely expensive however, and you're generally better off saving your faith to buy great people.
In the mid / late game it's just futile trying to fight over cities with missionaries and Great Prophets on Immortal / Deity. Even if you could keep up with them, and you likely can't, you wouldn't want to.
If you can get tithe, I think spreading your religion early when missionaries are cheap is a very effective strategy. Eventually missionaries become expensive, nearly to the point of a GP, and they became a very inefficient use of faith. They simply aren't strong enough to justify the cost, especially when you're trying to flip a city. Great Prophets completely remove opposing religion's and convert many more citizens, on top of having more uses. They eventually become extremely expensive however, and you're generally better off saving your faith to buy great people.
In the mid / late game it's just futile trying to fight over cities with missionaries and Great Prophets on Immortal / Deity. Even if you could keep up with them, and you likely can't, you wouldn't want to.
It's not so much of the difficulty as it is of random circumstances 
Even on emperor a lot of AIs go piety and if I see more than 5 faith giving pantheons, and I have no usable pantheon of my own on my terrain, then I give up on it. (no use wasting time on shrines)
On immortal and deity, short of getting ruins or NWs or 2 CSs early, the only time I would bother to build a shrine is if I have a good desert folklore start.
Of course in some games almost no AIs form pantheons (lack of religious CS and no one goes piety) then in that case I might try to get Hagia Sophia (risky, unless your capital has 6 salt tiles or so and you've been doing exceptionally well) but I've pulled Hagia Sophia off on deity even. (some AIs always tech the bottom of the tree... you just have to know what AIs they are; on the other hand don't bother with the faith wonders or Oracle if Pacal is in the game for example)
Even on emperor a lot of AIs go piety and if I see more than 5 faith giving pantheons, and I have no usable pantheon of my own on my terrain, then I give up on it. (no use wasting time on shrines)On immortal and deity, short of getting ruins or NWs or 2 CSs early, the only time I would bother to build a shrine is if I have a good desert folklore start.
Of course in some games almost no AIs form pantheons (lack of religious CS and no one goes piety) then in that case I might try to get Hagia Sophia (risky, unless your capital has 6 salt tiles or so and you've been doing exceptionally well) but I've pulled Hagia Sophia off on deity even. (some AIs always tech the bottom of the tree... you just have to know what AIs they are; on the other hand don't bother with the faith wonders or Oracle if Pacal is in the game for example)
justanotherturn
Warlord
I play once a pangea immortal game, was last to get a religion, but wanted it to be the world religions (france looking for cultural victory), i found myself trapping a lot of missionaries and GP from the other religions with scout and worker.
Even manage to move them like sheep and make a 4 GP convention near a mountain, surrounded by my scout. I keep some of them blocked like 100 turn.
once i pass the world religions vote (by converting the religion-less civ, and my Chinese neighbor) i was blocking 7 GP from the other religions)
eventually i attack the civ with the most GP in my park to plant them as sacred site.
I you really want to get and spread a religion, it's possible.
(well i was really slow on a lot of thing at the beginning because of the number of units i used to block the GP from the other civ.)
Even manage to move them like sheep and make a 4 GP convention near a mountain, surrounded by my scout. I keep some of them blocked like 100 turn.
once i pass the world religions vote (by converting the religion-less civ, and my Chinese neighbor) i was blocking 7 GP from the other religions)
eventually i attack the civ with the most GP in my park to plant them as sacred site.
I you really want to get and spread a religion, it's possible.
(well i was really slow on a lot of thing at the beginning because of the number of units i used to block the GP from the other civ.)
homegrown
Missionary of Sorenism
You can almost always get a religion founded on imm/diety if you are willing to delay finishing trad/lib by taking the first 2 policies in piety and getting those shrines and temples up post haste. I would only do that if I got a non-faith pantheon I didn't want to lose (God of the Sea, Goddess of the Hunt, etc).
However, if your only option for a pantheon is Fertility Rites (sure, it's a strong pantheon, but probably won't get you a religion and will be lost when you get converted, and some of the ai religions may be better down the road), I usually just try to get 20-30 fpt in the hope of buying religious buildings / great people later in the game. I can even see a situation where I might plant my first GP instead of founding, open borders, and let the missionaries come, like if my next door neighbor already reformed and took JE.
However, if your only option for a pantheon is Fertility Rites (sure, it's a strong pantheon, but probably won't get you a religion and will be lost when you get converted, and some of the ai religions may be better down the road), I usually just try to get 20-30 fpt in the hope of buying religious buildings / great people later in the game. I can even see a situation where I might plant my first GP instead of founding, open borders, and let the missionaries come, like if my next door neighbor already reformed and took JE.
and now it flipped again to a third religion and I was able to build Monasteries on top of Cathedrals, Pagodas and Mosques. Heh.
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