So archery units in Civ 4 have something in common with their Civ 3 ancestors - they don't require resources (except the crossbow). However, what this means for both games is very, very different. In Civ 3 if you were stuck without iron you could still build spearmen for defense and archers. Archers and longbows were attack units...so you could still defend yourself and even invade a neighbour without iron. In Civ 4, however, it's a little different. Without a strategic resource, such as a metal, horses, or ivory, the only units you can build are archers, longbows, and seige. Archery units in Civ 4 are defensive units though. So without a strategic resource you can defend yourself reasonably well, but can you still attack? Has anyone had a lot of success attacking with archers/longbows? What promotions do you use?
Attacking with archery units??
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troytheface
Deity
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Babylon has the Bowmen UU which has a 50% against Melee troops.
The Native Americans have a Totem Pole unique building that gives their archers 2 or three first strikes combined with City Garrison and Drill which comes with the Protective trait.
The Cho no ku with China is reportedly deadly.
I have tried and both suceeded and failed with a Bowmen rush. Haven't tried the other two.
The Native Americans have a Totem Pole unique building that gives their archers 2 or three first strikes combined with City Garrison and Drill which comes with the Protective trait.
The Cho no ku with China is reportedly deadly.
I have tried and both suceeded and failed with a Bowmen rush. Haven't tried the other two.
The Cho-no-ku's does require iron though.. Without strategic resources you are basically at the mercy of your opponents until gunpowder though.. In civ4 you can attack with longbows + cats but it would never work against a decently skilled human opponent unless you get feudalism for oracle to get longbows super early and you are protective. Basically you want to get counter promotions to whatever units you are fighting. Drill 4 is good if you can get that far unless you are fighting horse units.
madscientist
RPC Supergenius
To be honest if I have no strategic resourcese it is a rare game. The few times I did over the 2+ years I have played this game
1) Restart. Most popular and nothing the AI can do about it :grin:
2) Turtle up, use CG promotions to guard cities. Woodman promoted warriors in forrests on fringes to hold off barb archers (It works fairly well). Build new cities on hills. Target walls in each city. Build numerous archers in all cities. DO NOT ATTCK>
3) Beeline Fuedalism and Construction. Lot's of Cats can defend very well with the promotion that adds to collateral damage. Run Vassalage for the extra promotions.
4) You CAN attack if you have longbows against an AI that had archers and metals, just make sure no one else will join in. Promote to combat I, then a mix of cover and shock.
5) Turtle more if possible, target gunpowder. Also beeline engineering before guilds for castles.
But the best way to handle the situation is to tech like a fiend and get a good edge there, even if you are limited to a few cities. AND diplomacy.
1) Restart. Most popular and nothing the AI can do about it :grin:
2) Turtle up, use CG promotions to guard cities. Woodman promoted warriors in forrests on fringes to hold off barb archers (It works fairly well). Build new cities on hills. Target walls in each city. Build numerous archers in all cities. DO NOT ATTCK>
3) Beeline Fuedalism and Construction. Lot's of Cats can defend very well with the promotion that adds to collateral damage. Run Vassalage for the extra promotions.
4) You CAN attack if you have longbows against an AI that had archers and metals, just make sure no one else will join in. Promote to combat I, then a mix of cover and shock.
5) Turtle more if possible, target gunpowder. Also beeline engineering before guilds for castles.
But the best way to handle the situation is to tech like a fiend and get a good edge there, even if you are limited to a few cities. AND diplomacy.
Attacking with longbows isn't "that" bad. Run vassalage, pick combatI+shock or cover.
It's not the best unit to attack with but if you have no other choice .. cats & longbows should be good enough to grab a few cities. Even if it's longbows vs longbows/Horses.
It's not the best unit to attack with but if you have no other choice .. cats & longbows should be good enough to grab a few cities. Even if it's longbows vs longbows/Horses.
Refar
Deity
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There is also Mansa's skirmischer who is technically a Archery unit. Those guys make acceptable units for a rush.
If not having a UU unlocked by it however, archery is often pretty low on the teching priority... And games where you end up without Horses or Copper or Iron are rather rare...
If not having a UU unlocked by it however, archery is often pretty low on the teching priority... And games where you end up without Horses or Copper or Iron are rather rare...
Verge
Let's hug it out
It's a rare game when you don't have nearby strategic resources. Even rarer is the game when you not only lack nearby strategic resources, you have no allies willing to trade you their surplus. And yet rarer is the game when, in addition to lacking nearby strategic resources and allies willing to trade you their surplus, your only course of action is to attack an enemy with archery units in an effort to secure the forementioned resources.
Save yourself the hammer loss, don't attack with archery units.
Save yourself the hammer loss, don't attack with archery units.
DigitalBoy
Emperor
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- Jun 29, 2006
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- 1,347
Going on the offense with archery units is less than optimal, which is being generous. Fortunately, the situations in which you have neither copper, iron, nor horses are very rare. I suppose longbowmen (and crossbowmen, but you're thinking resourceless units) could be useful if you beeline for them.
Units weakened by siege can are easier to kill, and there don't require resources.
Units weakened by siege can are easier to kill, and there don't require resources.
PimpyMicPimp
Regrets His Username.
I havn't tried a Bowman rush, but it's intriguing. They seem to be the only real counter to Dog Warriors early on. I can say that Sitting Bull's Crossbows make for decent attackers, if only because of the sheer amount of experience they can get right out of the gate. And when they eventually get promoted to Riflemen...hoo-boy!
Black Mech
Nuked
Yes they are, but I was playing as Japan and I had copper and nothing else. So inthe middle ages I had axes while everyone else had macemen. Samurai would have been nice but no iron, it was very disappointing.
Can't you make macemen with copper(I know you could in vanilla cause I sometimes ended up with no iron in some games but had copper and it let me build them, not sure in BTS though).
ParadigmShifter
Random Nonsense Generator
You can make macemen with copper but samurai require iron.
King of Town
Adventuring
any sitting bull archer is great to attack with, and I knocked out three civ's early with nothing but bowmen. I just kept pushing them and they kept winning battles. Giving them really any promotions, but I like drill just makes them ridiculous.
CivMcNut
Having Fun At It
Yes they are, but I was playing as Japan and I had copper and nothing else. So inthe middle ages I had axes while everyone else had macemen. Samurai would have been nice but no iron
I had this problem with Japan too. Most any other civ and I could have taken some macemen and bonked some heads. Samurai need that iron. I was trying to fight to get it. You don't realize how important something is until you don't have it.
Gliese 581
Your average civ junkie
It is not uncommon to be stuck without a strategic resource at least early on in a OCC. The answer there is to build and tech anything that raises your power level. The Great Wall gives you 10k soldiers, if you feel you need more power you can convert a Gspy to a Scotland Yard for 8000 more soldiers rather than settling him, desperate measure but still. The Moai statues is another 10k soldiers..
Go for techs that gives you soldiers.. HBR is another 10k soldiers.. etc.
You have to use diplomacy well in this situation obviously, try to play nice with the aggressive civs and get them to attack other civs.
Go for techs that gives you soldiers.. HBR is another 10k soldiers.. etc.
You have to use diplomacy well in this situation obviously, try to play nice with the aggressive civs and get them to attack other civs.
Artichoker
Emperor
- Joined
- Dec 21, 2007
- Messages
- 1,711
If you have enough Catapults (which should be the case after you get Construction), then the Catapult makes a great mainstay unit, and a great 1st attacker regardless of whether you have access to a strategic resource.
The question then becomes, which unit becomes the 2nd attacker? Using the Catapult itself, in comparison to a Swordsman, sacrifices only 1 Strength and +10% city attack, but still allows you to get City Raider. For Aggressive leaders, the Catapult is also 1 promotion behind the Swordsman. The main danger is Horse Archers, which can ruin your Catapults, but you can bring Spearmen to counter this.
The advantage of Catapults over Swordsmen as the 2nd attacker, however, is that you don't need to worry about having too few siege units. Your 1st attacker and 2nd attacker units are the same, and using them as 2nd attacker units (which means that enemy units have already been softened) will allow your Catapults to get more promotions.
However, I rarely find myself in a situation when I have no Ivory, Horses, Iron, or Copper.
I often apply this strategy to the Riflemen age. Often, during the 1st attacker stage, when I use Cannons as sacrificial units, the enemy units are weakened to a point that my Cannons have a good chance of surviving. I have thus reached a "critical mass" of cannons that allow me to defeat the enemy stack without having other types of units.
The same principle can be applied to the medieval age, when you have Catapults instead of Cannons. It's still possible to achieve a critical mass of catapults, but you need more of them since a catapult has a lower strength than a cannon.
The advantage of catapults over cannons, however, is that cannons are easily countered by Cavalry units. On the other hand, catapults do not receive a penalty against Knights, although they do receive one against Horse Archers.
The question then becomes, which unit becomes the 2nd attacker? Using the Catapult itself, in comparison to a Swordsman, sacrifices only 1 Strength and +10% city attack, but still allows you to get City Raider. For Aggressive leaders, the Catapult is also 1 promotion behind the Swordsman. The main danger is Horse Archers, which can ruin your Catapults, but you can bring Spearmen to counter this.
The advantage of Catapults over Swordsmen as the 2nd attacker, however, is that you don't need to worry about having too few siege units. Your 1st attacker and 2nd attacker units are the same, and using them as 2nd attacker units (which means that enemy units have already been softened) will allow your Catapults to get more promotions.
However, I rarely find myself in a situation when I have no Ivory, Horses, Iron, or Copper.
I often apply this strategy to the Riflemen age. Often, during the 1st attacker stage, when I use Cannons as sacrificial units, the enemy units are weakened to a point that my Cannons have a good chance of surviving. I have thus reached a "critical mass" of cannons that allow me to defeat the enemy stack without having other types of units.
The same principle can be applied to the medieval age, when you have Catapults instead of Cannons. It's still possible to achieve a critical mass of catapults, but you need more of them since a catapult has a lower strength than a cannon.
The advantage of catapults over cannons, however, is that cannons are easily countered by Cavalry units. On the other hand, catapults do not receive a penalty against Knights, although they do receive one against Horse Archers.
Turtle up, build catapults and archer units for defence.
Beeline Feudalism, then Civil Service, then Liberalism. With smalish army and peaceful gameplay even with 1-3 cities you can be first to liberalism after which you grab gunpowder.
Prioritize food, cottages on floodplains, build libraries and academy in capital.
If not too hard level you can get to grenadiers while enemy still has axemen as mainstay unit.
Beeline Feudalism, then Civil Service, then Liberalism. With smalish army and peaceful gameplay even with 1-3 cities you can be first to liberalism after which you grab gunpowder.
Prioritize food, cottages on floodplains, build libraries and academy in capital.
If not too hard level you can get to grenadiers while enemy still has axemen as mainstay unit.
morchuflex
Emperor
Obviously you don't play a lot of archipelago maps... It is quite common on this setting to have no strategic resources and no neighbor before astronomy.
who are you going to attack then
?I'm afraid I didn't have this problem very often, in the hundreds of games I played.
Or I didn't even notice
.First, I'm looking for copper pretty soon, and I value early exploration a lot, sometimes it's more important than the early worker, thus I often build a warrior first.
This allows me to settle on/next to copper with my second city more than 50% of the games.
Second, if you're stuck without metals early, you simply can forgo an early rush.
If you attack a bit later, you can go with catapults defended by archery/gunpowder units.
In BtS, it feels bad, because you need other units to kill your opponent, thus you will need a pile of archery units on top of the pile of siege, but it's still worth it.
morchuflex
Emperor
Makes sense...who are you going to attack then
But I'm not the O.P. and my point stands: contrary to what has been said above, it is NOT rare at all, at least on archipelago maps, to have neither copper, nor iron, nor horses within range of your first or even second city. Which can be very annoying, especially when you play (as I do) with raging barbs ON.As for the original question, it is true that with enough catapults you can conquer almost any city. However, it may not be worth the cost, and catapults don't come very early...
