Avoiding the Meat Grinder

Velociryx

Chieftain
Joined
Jan 19, 2002
Messages
20
This one comes up a lot in chat. Combat with a rival nation can often feel a bit like a meat grinder and it can be difficult to land a decisive blow that "breaks" the enemy army.

Personally, I regard that as a good thing, but I get the frustration. Here's what you can do about it:

First, right up front, understand that the game does a remarkably good job at encouraging the use of combined arms. A lot of newer players don't get this and get focused in too much on just "move unit and attack" (repeat until offending unit dies).

You can do that, and you can have some success that way, but it's inefficient. In order to avoid the meat grinder effect, you've really got to understand (to the point that it becomes muscle memory) how the unit types and abilities work together.

First, efficient use of your units means never (or almost never) attacking into "bad" terrain for a given unit type. If at all possible, don't use your slingers/archers/etc to attack forest tiles. Scrub tiles are okay as they provide the same level of cover as attacking an infantry unit on an urban tile, except of course, that the damage reduction only applies to missile troops. Even so, missile troops can usually fire for decent effect into scrub, but I wouldn't recommend leading with that. Any time a unit is in trees (scrub or forest), the go-to unit to dig them out is melee.

Missile troops are "light artillery support." Their main job should be seen as fight finishing. If a melee unit almost, but didn't quite destroy an enemy unit, the missile troop finishes it off (sometimes, even firing into forest if it results in a kill shot). Used this way, your missile troops will wind up being relatively more highly promoted than your melee troops and they tend to have better longevity anyway, since they don't have to be right up in the enemy's face, so guard your missile troops carefully. Good place to put your generals. Having a core of Level 4-5 missile troops to lay down withering support fire can change the game, especially if many of those units are led by generals who can augment their power further.

Guard and Combat promotions don't get as much love from newer players as they should. Look, I get it. You want to inflict maximum pain on the bad guys. Sure, but here's the thing:

The best way to do that is to Bring Moar Guys to the fight. The bottom line is that you have fine-grained control over what happens on your turn. What you can't control is what the AI does on its turn. Guard and Combat promotions are your insurance policy. They give you that little extra bit of help on the AI's turn that increases unit survivability, or at the very least, forces the AI to spend an additional attack or two to finish off a unit of yours. Seriously. Guard and Combat. Your two new best friends in the meat grinder.

Cavalry units (starting with Chariot and then horsemen and cataphracts) are evil, especially when combined with onagers or any unit that can damage multiple enemies (axemen, swords, Akkadians/Cimmerians if you're playing Babylon).

Your "splash damage" troops inflict mass mayhem on several targets, chariot rides in and kills the lot of them. It works just like the "reaper" ranger ability if you've played XCom2. Same principle. The only issue is that your cav units are targets of choice for the AI. The AI understands how powerful even a lone chariot can be and will hunt them down ruthlessly (you can actually use this to your advantage, letting one chariot play White Rabbit for you, luring a whole mess of enemy troops into a kill box, then finishing the lot of them off with splash damage troops and a second chariot kept in the back ranks until you're ready to spring the trap).

NEVER fight an enemy unit on terrain of his choosing. If there's a fortified axeman on a stronghold tile, he's going to get: 25% def. bonus for being on urban, 30% for being in the stronghold and up to 25% for being level five fortified. You lose that fight, even if you finally kill him. Use an elephant to make him move, then kill him.

By the same token, ruthlessly occupy any important enemy tiles like that and use them against your rival or at the very least, deny them access (some talk about changing the math so you can't benefit from the defensive bonus of an enemy controlled stronghold - still worth occupying tho, because if you're on the tile, then your opponent isn't).

Also, don't fight fair. There are two things that win a fight. Numbers and field position. Crap field position can be overcome with sufficient numbers (or enough elephants). Conversely, exceptional field work and field position can overcome all but stupidly overwhelming numbers, so decide before you start fighting if you're playing offense or defense and stick to that until the battle pivots, then you can take a breath and reassess your stance.

If you're playing offense, you need more orders and plenty of training points for forced marches to GAIN the field position you want.

If you're playing defense you need relatively fewer orders and in most cases, unless you just got blindsided, you've already GOT field position.

Use forts and combat engineers (workers). Build roads to help speed reinforcements to a hot spot (merchant workers are your best friend here). Build forts in anticipation of, and sometimes during a battle. Your troops can heal on a fort even if it's outside your borders. Take advantage of that, and note that an onager on a hill, protected by a fort (or an archer if that's the best you've got) is One. Scary. Mofo. Also use workers to change the landscape in and around possible battle sites. Clear cut forests on an approach an enemy is likely to take to deny him cover. Force him to fight in the open while your units fight from forest/urban tiles. Your workers can do that for you.

Practice. Refight the same battle sixteen different ways till you begin to FEEL the ebb and flow of it.

Don't just plonk down your garrison/stronghold "anyoldwhere" but really think about where the enemy might come from and which specific tile it's crucial to hold in the event of an attack. Then, put a guy on it and fortify him (if melee).

If attacking, study the approaches to the city/whatever. Understand WHICH tiles you need to grab immediate control over and HOW to attack (don't want to attack across river, don't want archers firing into trees, etc.) then design your force accordingly, remembering to bring an elephant or two if you see the enemy fortified on nasty defensive tiles.

Do all that and you go a long way toward avoiding the meat grinder.
 
Also build alot of units early, because it seems like the AI can declare war on you random because of events, so be ready for war at all times.
 
For sure - most players struggle to find the right prioritization for units (and usually err on the side of not building enough). The only civ that can get away with that is Carthage because they've got an easy, reliable way of getting units without having to train them.
 
Right - Orators can hire using Legitimacy...that's expensive but it can be super effective in that you can dramatically increase the size of your military (albiet, at a long term cost) and use that to pummel a neighbor. I don't really like the orator archetype but they definitely have their uses.
Rushing is (or can be) a good strategy but IMO, it's best use is for lynchpin units (ie - I don't know that I'd ever find it of value to rush another axeman, but...if I could get my two new onagers in the field six to ten turns sooner...oh yeah. LOL
 
I played one game with Greece, Philip is a commander who can hurry units and Greece can get their capital developed quickly, so I got a fast start as I could hurry my units with orders.
 
Yep...Commanders are underappreciated, I think. Tacticians get most of the headlines because of stun, and Heroes because of "launch offensive" but commanders are certainly no slouches!
 
Don't just plonk down your garrison/stronghold "anyoldwhere" but really think about where the enemy might come from and which specific tile it's crucial to hold in the event of an attack.
Thanks. I always think of optimizing the placement with as many adjacent barracks as possible, but this makes more sense.
 
Right! I absolutely advocate for that too - it's just that when deciding where to place that triad of improvements (garrison + 2 barracks), I like to really study the map and see where I could best use that extra defensive "kick" - best of both worlds! :)
 
Any tips for swarms of missile units? I'm still a novice at this game, so maybe I just need to get better at it, but from where I'm standing right now at least, missile units seem a bit overpowered. I swear, I've fought armies that were, like, 90% ranged troops, The enemy approaches with several slingers or archers, then they all gang up on one non-missile unit of mine at a time, just picking them off one-by-one. Of course, you can return in kind, throwing mostly melee units at each ranged squad one at a time, but they often seem a bit more resilient in up-close combat than I'm used to (from Civ 6 and the like), and about the time you make a dent in the crowd, here come a few more slingers or archers down the pipeline. It's an uncannily (and frustratingly) effective strategy that I finally beat by little more than the skin of my teeth! It gets really bad in the latter half of the game, when they swap out archers for onagers and do basically the same thing, only now with cavalry to back them up (I effin' loathe the Romans at the moment)!

I found myself wondering more than once, "Seriously, how do they find the time to build anything else, when all they seem to do is crank out slingers/archers/onagers?" Maybe I just need to beeline any tech that unlocks cavalry, since a good cavalry charge is probably a missile unit's worst-case scenario, but even then, those don't seem to even show up in the deck until surprisingly late in the game.
 
Last edited:
I found myself wondering more than once, "Seriously, how do they find the time to build anything else, when all they seem to do is crank out slingers/archers/onagers?"
How many times have I felt the same! :lol:

A good strategy against missiles is to hide in forests.

Maybe I just need to beeline any tech that unlocks cavalry, since a good cavalry charge is probably a missile unit's worst-case scenario
Kinda weird, I don't find them that overwhelming, maybe I'm wrong. But chaining 2 attacks is very powerful.
 
The counter for ranged heavy armies, is forests. Plus mounted units. Plant your own ranged at the edge of a forest and wear down their ranged. Then use mounted units rout ability to chain kill the damaged ranged units.
 
Back
Top Bottom