Axe rushing

[Beerchugger]

I read about it all over the place, but despite watching a large number of vids online I have yet to see anyone at any level actually use it.

Is it a legitimate strategy, especially on higher levels? If so why does nobody online seem to ever use it?

 

[Manco Capac]

On emperor, this works with copper even outside the city. The target should be close though.
On immortal, it works better with copper in capital BFC. Close target.
On deity, rarely works. Copper within capital's BFC necessary condition. Target closer than usual. Agressive trait almost required for efficiency and fast barracks.

 

[Pojman]

A strategy that I use, almost every game, is what I call the "axe squat".

I play on Diety, huge, marathon maps, 18 AI's, aggressive AI.

The "axe squat" consists of researching bronze working first and building about 3 axes as quick as possible. I then use these axes to find 2 neighboring civs and scout their borders. Once I find a worker unprotected on the border, I will steel the worker. Then I use the axe to pillage all of their land. After the AI has been pillaged, I will squat the axe on fortify on a wooded/hilled tile right next to their two cities.

This will cause the AI to do nothing but produce archers. This will keep the AI in a state of non-advancement, and give me a huge land advantage with lots of space to grow.

Sometimes I almost feel like it is taking advantage of the AI's stupidity, and feels kinda like cheating. But its not, so.... Yea - that's the "axe squat"

Try it out on your next game. The advantage is decreased neighboring threat, and room to grow unhindered. But the disadvantage is decreased AI attitude, and a more overall aggressive position toward you from other AIs.

 

[Beerchugger]

On emperor, this works with copper even outside the city. The target should be close though.
On immortal, it works better with copper in capital BFC. Close target.
On deity, rarely works. Copper within capital's BFC necessary condition. Target closer than usual. Agressive trait almost required for efficiency and fast barracks.

Good stuff, this would explain why I rarely see it since most of the online plays are immortal or above. Thanks!

 

[Beerchugger]

A strategy that I use, almost every game, is what I call the "axe squat".

I play on Diety, huge, marathon maps, 18 AI's, aggressive AI.

The "axe squat" consists of researching bronze working first and building about 3 axes as quick as possible. I then use these axes to find 2 neighboring civs and scout their borders. Once I find a worker unprotected on the border, I will steel the worker. Then I use the axe to pillage all of their land. After the AI has been pillaged, I will squat the axe on fortify on a wooded/hilled tile right next to their two cities.

This will cause the AI to do nothing but produce archers. This will keep the AI in a state of non-advancement, and give me a huge land advantage with lots of space to grow.

Sometimes I almost feel like it is taking advantage of the AI's stupidity, and feels kinda like cheating. But its not, so.... Yea - that's the "axe squat"

Try it out on your next game. The advantage is decreased neighboring threat, and room to grow unhindered. But the disadvantage is decreased AI attitude, and a more overall aggressive position toward you from other AIs.

Pojman, this is nothing short of GENIUS lol. I am definately going to try it out, thanks for sharing!

 

[Matty R]

Pojman, this is nothing short of GENIUS lol. I am definately going to try it out, thanks for sharing!

I agree. I'll be trying this at some point.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

"Axe squat" is a marathon exclusive tactic.

 

[Pojman]

"Axe squat" is a marathon exclusive tactic.

I think I could pull it off effectively on an epic game also..

So - do you find it to be somewhat "cheating" also? It just feels like such a dirty tactic.

 

[DrakeD]

"Axe squat" is a marathon exclusive tactic.

Isnt this "axe squat" just a variation of what AZ does in several of his videos?? Im pretty sure Ive seen him pull it off on Diety-normal. Im not saying that its easy. Just that its possible.

 

[Pojman]

Isnt this "axe squat" just a variation of what AZ does in several of his videos?? Im pretty sure Ive seen him pull it off on Diety-normal. Im not saying that its easy. Just that its possible.

aww darn it.. I thought I made up the "axe squat"... There goes my claim to fame..

 

[Manco Capac]

Good stuff, this would explain why I rarely see it since most of the online plays are immortal or above. Thanks!

Those assumptions avoid any choking measures. Because choking delays the AI, especially if you repetitively steal worker.

And choking deity AI is really hard and often mighty dangerous unless you get a better unit than warrior before the AI gets to a strategic resource.

Choking deity AI on normal speed requires almost complete exploration of their lands and constant verification of their strongest units via bragging function. Otherwise, you are the prey of many randomnesses. I made personally many many choking on deity and they fail quite regularly.

Even the recent immortal university with Charlie was a failure; yes I controlled the AI, disconnected strategic resources, but what to do with huge piles of archers behind walls. Indeed, once you choke, the AI enters in archers/units spamming mode, depending of the leader propensity to unit spamming. Ragnar is one of the worst.

 

[Iranon]

The reason "squatting" is more popular than rushing: Deity AIs spread like Herpes. Even if the military side of a rush works out well, chances are that another AI will benefit greatly from the free space and turn into a hard-to-tame monster.

In general, full thermonuclear jerkwaddery works well. If it would annoy you as a player, the AI is probably helpless against it.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

I think I could pull it off effectively on an epic game also..

So - do you find it to be somewhat "cheating" also? It just feels like such a dirty tactic.

Of course it isn't cheating. If you feel it takes away challenge and don't want to take away challenge, you can of course choose to restrict it from what you do for fun.

AZ does utilize versions of this, but not quite the way it's being described. For example it is utterly impossible to get to a deity AI city with 3 axes while it has only 2 cities on normal speed unless you get very, very lucky. Some AI can hook copper or horse and declare on you by just before 2000 BC. If you don't have BFC copper I don't see how you get there in time.

It's quite likely the AI gets to 4 cities before you can even build a worker and hook up copper or horse. It also has a reasonable chance of having either copper or iron in its borders on those 4+ cities, and choking that off of it while still expanding (and avoiding other AI simply taking the land instead) gets expensive. On marathon you can mitigate this with triple move speed relative to tech rate and double speed relative to production rate; but the faster the speed gets, the less viable such a tactic becomes.

When the AI will often have metal in 3k to 2500 BC range, you can't rely on this tactic. Considering you can't really know that it doesn't have metal before having to commit to the tactic, that means playing for a fast 3 axes without some kind of pre-axe choke attempt is playing with straight luck and it WILL fail a fair bit.

 

[plasmacannon]

I use the "squat" method in 'always war' games on marathon, except I use woods2 warriors to steal workers. I can usually steal more than I build and save production that way.
It works great with Guerilla2 Skirmishers in my current game, but I've used it with Guerilla2 Gallics too. The AI's worker will recognize a chariot, Impi, HA etc as a 2 movement unit. It sees woods2 and guerilla2 units as their base movement, which is usually 1. So, you can be 2 tile away from an AI worker with a woods2 warrior and swoop in and grab it. Then, escort it out. If you are not too far from your empire you can move the worker on its own for a short distance and return the woods2 unit back to stealing workers. The trick is to Not squat, but harass the AI's capitol. Move in and out, around to another side. leave and come back in 2-3 turns. Give him enough time to 'think' it's safe to bring out his worker to irrigate a corn or build a road, then swoop in and grab it. Pillaging any tiles you come across can bring in enough gold to make up for the costs of keeping the unit out of your territory for so long and the disruption of the AI's teching ability is long lasting. Especially, on marathon, always war, NTT, NTB. Yes, I build axes for this purpose later. I prefer to save my woods3 warriors for medics and woods3 com1 cover axemen (eventually with com2 and sometimes shock). They are great barb killers for the 1st 10xp and the AI's hate them harassing their workers. Stall them and you don't have to be FIN to tech the fastest.
These tactics work well vs most empires. Not vs Native America and a Jaguar will squash your warrior. Sometimes, I will find AIs with com2 archers. They don't fear warriors, so don't get too close to a capitol that has built up 3+ archers.

These are what I use Axes for. Swordsman are better at attacking cities than axes, so "harass and stall", until you get Swords. Gallics can be built with copper, so they come sooner and are more effective faster since they start with Guerilla1. They are the masters of the terrain (both tile types) until musketmen.

 

[Manco Capac]

Considering you can't really know that it doesn't have metal before having to commit to the tactic, that means playing for a fast 3 axes without some kind of pre-axe choke attempt is playing with straight luck and it WILL fail a fair bit.

In fact, you can know even before knowledge of BW and AH. My post described it, but true you gamble a lot with a single or two warriors; you have to ensure safety of them and assure the AI is not a courageous one suiciding archers easily.
And once you discover no copper or horses, you stuck to pile archers to defend yourself.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

You only know they have axes via bragging once they've constructed an axe . The real pain is when you plan a rush and the AI suddenly produces an axe or three (a long march to their capitol can cause that problem).

And I said you'd need a "pre-axe" choke for a reason! I agree with you that the archers can still ruin your day. When you axe rush someone and every city you attack has 6 or more archers, the cost of that victory will take you clean out of actual contention for winning. Kmod AI are particularly good about camping their archers but in the stock game the deity AI can definitely do it too.

BTW it's pretty comical when the AI says "fear my no unit".

But hell, you can't even guarantee a warrior attempting to scout the AI will survive barb animals, let alone barb archers or an AI who rolls some nice attack courage that turn.

 

[Manco Capac]

You only know they have axes via bragging once they've constructed an axe .

Wrooong! (I can't believe saying this to you... )

Once the strat. resource is connected, the strongest unit bragging appears under condition you're weaker than the AI. Many cases, I was able to intervene before the first unit was out.

My backup: DanF. I'm pretty sure he confirmed what I read somewhere in a old thread.

Kmod AI are particularly good about camping their archers but in the stock game the deity AI can definitely do it too.

Yes, I'm sure I've read Karadoc drastically nerfed the power of choking.
Is even K-mod deity can be beaten...?

But hell, you can't even guarantee a warrior attempting to scout the AI will survive barb animals, let alone barb archers or an AI who rolls some nice attack courage that turn.

Well, once you enter the AI's land, barbs shouldn't be there. Scouting is done while at war with the AI using land defenses advantages. The scouting is useful as early as you want, even though you don't AH, BW or even IW. Because tiles output seen by the AI can be seen by us, weird output means hidden resources. Go there and annoy the workers who want to reconnect or even connect.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

Wrooong! (I can't believe saying this to you... )

Hey, nobody can be correct 100% of the time. I'm surprised though, that is not consistent with my experience but then I generally just use the "tile yield" method (every moment I play has yields on at all times so I will notice mines/hills/flats with extra lol) when choosing to axe rush and honestly don't do it a whole lot on immortal and almost never on deity/normal .

The only time the tile yield method fails is when the AI settles on top of copper or iron on a tile where said resource doesn't have >1 base , such as settling on a grassland flatland copper with city #2. That really sucks lol. I guess that would be the time to rely upon the trade screen.

Is even K-mod deity can be beaten...?

I haven't seen it yet. Even immortal would be pretty difficult because of the way AI war plans and execution gets change and its somewhat better empire management. It WILL choke sometimes and while it's not nearly as good at it as a human choking you, the setback is pretty bad because it often stuffs tile improvements in that direction and makes expanding that way + connecting the city difficult.

 

[paladin_soul]

Axe rushing requires a close copper mine and the target's lack of copper, iron or horse. I don't see any possibility of success without any one of the previous condition.

 

[Pisskop]

If you really want to see it in action, do it yourself. Simply pop out a worker, settler, and then axe away... oviously it is a situational thing, and I personally want 3 cities of my own make before aquiring other's property... but experiement... even turn down the difficulty and play 150 turns (marathon). Even use worldbuilder to spy or customize a situation or w.e.