Barbarians attacked me very early game with several axemen. Combined with the new annoying barb AI, it was a pretty bad situation and I eventually just lost interest in the game. Checked worldbuilder, and the barbarians didn't have the Bronze Working tech (nobody did)... so where did they get these axemen from?
Axemen without Bronze Working
- Thread starter WCH
- Start date
The lair penalties are ridiculously stupid with the new AI. Depending on where you start and the number of lairs you have near by you either need to keep your starting 2 units plus 1-2 more fortified on lairs, instead of guarding your city, OR you need to take the gamble of will my unit disappear, get mutated, get sick, get damaged, spawn a str 6 + 5 str 4 guys or any number of horrible things many of which will happen and not even get rid of the lair.
I'd be curious to find out how many people aren't really bothered by this because they just reload autosaves when anything but killing the lair happens. Personally I think it's utterly stupid. Its basically playing the lottery except instead of a 1/30billion chance of winning money you have what seems to be a 6/10 chance of something horrible happening.
Where does the challenge or skill come in there? Even if you play it safe and fortify units on the lairs most times they are outside your culture which means if you play with raging barbs or wildlands they are going to die pretty soon anyway, and even if they don't it means that instead of having 4 or 5 units in your cap and 1 exploring you have 1 in your cap and none exploring which is a death sentence with raging barbs and the new AI.
What I've been doing is building warriors up to 6-8 and then founding 2nd city when at least 2 of them have shock promotion and then building back up to 8 per city and that seems to work fairly well on Prince although some of my expansion cities are literally filled with stacks of warriors and skeletons moving back and forth waiting till they are strong enough to attack.
I'd be curious to find out how many people aren't really bothered by this because they just reload autosaves when anything but killing the lair happens. Personally I think it's utterly stupid. Its basically playing the lottery except instead of a 1/30billion chance of winning money you have what seems to be a 6/10 chance of something horrible happening.
Where does the challenge or skill come in there? Even if you play it safe and fortify units on the lairs most times they are outside your culture which means if you play with raging barbs or wildlands they are going to die pretty soon anyway, and even if they don't it means that instead of having 4 or 5 units in your cap and 1 exploring you have 1 in your cap and none exploring which is a death sentence with raging barbs and the new AI.
What I've been doing is building warriors up to 6-8 and then founding 2nd city when at least 2 of them have shock promotion and then building back up to 8 per city and that seems to work fairly well on Prince although some of my expansion cities are literally filled with stacks of warriors and skeletons moving back and forth waiting till they are strong enough to attack.
Fafnir13
King
I do not normally load my game. I used to, but I found it made the game less rewarding for me. It also makes me really have to think before I blitzkrieg with a hero or other valuable unit.
That said, I haven't had any real problem with lairs that I haven't had before. Being near a dense jungle full of ruins is never fun. Skeletons are still easy pickings, especially once I figured out that they would attack units in the field without much hesitation. That might be your problem. Sitting in your city won't work anymore. You have to venture outside your walls and actively engage the barbarian units. This means a few extra warriors, but it also means fewer turns spent in the early game doing nothing but hitting enter, enter, enter, enter...
On the subject of taking out lairs, I always save that for when I have a good surplus of strong units (probably after a conquest or two). A stack of five usually gets the job done. Epic lairs I steer clear of until much later when I've got bigger stacks and direct damage backup.
That said, I haven't had any real problem with lairs that I haven't had before. Being near a dense jungle full of ruins is never fun. Skeletons are still easy pickings, especially once I figured out that they would attack units in the field without much hesitation. That might be your problem. Sitting in your city won't work anymore. You have to venture outside your walls and actively engage the barbarian units. This means a few extra warriors, but it also means fewer turns spent in the early game doing nothing but hitting enter, enter, enter, enter...
On the subject of taking out lairs, I always save that for when I have a good surplus of strong units (probably after a conquest or two). A stack of five usually gets the job done. Epic lairs I steer clear of until much later when I've got bigger stacks and direct damage backup.
Emptiness
[]
- Joined
- Jan 7, 2009
- Messages
- 1,922
I don't explore lairs early. Seeing a str-23 (or whatever) named Manticore spawn from a lair popped by a Warrior cured me of that fast. I also don't station units on lairs, as this is a waste. As you said, those units are very vulnerable. Additionally, the AI will often explore the lair out from under you, meaning you do the work and they get the benefit - and you suffer if something nasty comes out.
The best way to cope with lairs and their spawns in the early game is to attack and kill them as they approach your cities. Careful attention to terrain details and combat tactics will help here immensely. The early game reminds me of Chess for this reason. Some sacrifices must be made to protect the King (ie your improvements). If you stay behind your walls and let the barbarians run rampant in your territory then you're losing the game before it even begins.
I think this recent change in barbarian behavior has thrown a lot of people off their game. I was not able to survive by building the same level of defenses I'd been building previously. Only by adapting to the change by increasing the number of Warriors I build in the early game have I been able to meet the challenge the new barbarians pose. This has forced me to accept a slower start, both in the sense of slower teching due to a larger army, and slower expansion due to more turns spent building defenders rather than settlers. Being forced to make those compromises might make it necessary for a player to lower the difficulty setting they play on, but based on pre-H speculative commentary it was the general consensus that most people would need to do that as a result of the changes.
The best way to cope with lairs and their spawns in the early game is to attack and kill them as they approach your cities. Careful attention to terrain details and combat tactics will help here immensely. The early game reminds me of Chess for this reason. Some sacrifices must be made to protect the King (ie your improvements). If you stay behind your walls and let the barbarians run rampant in your territory then you're losing the game before it even begins.
I think this recent change in barbarian behavior has thrown a lot of people off their game. I was not able to survive by building the same level of defenses I'd been building previously. Only by adapting to the change by increasing the number of Warriors I build in the early game have I been able to meet the challenge the new barbarians pose. This has forced me to accept a slower start, both in the sense of slower teching due to a larger army, and slower expansion due to more turns spent building defenders rather than settlers. Being forced to make those compromises might make it necessary for a player to lower the difficulty setting they play on, but based on pre-H speculative commentary it was the general consensus that most people would need to do that as a result of the changes.
What's en epic lair? Something that doesn't spawn on chieftain difficulty?
I don't have any problems with the normal lairs. It's a nice exp boost for my early fighters. I just send a unit out to kill the skeletons and goblins as soon as they get near my border, the lizards I usually wait until they are standing in a plain or desert tile. I only try and remove a lair if it's in or next to my borders, because that constant enemy alert warning drives me crazy.
I don't have any problems with the normal lairs. It's a nice exp boost for my early fighters. I just send a unit out to kill the skeletons and goblins as soon as they get near my border, the lizards I usually wait until they are standing in a plain or desert tile. I only try and remove a lair if it's in or next to my borders, because that constant enemy alert warning drives me crazy.
Nor'easter
Deity
- Joined
- Feb 25, 2007
- Messages
- 2,027
An "epic lair" is a Unique Feature that's explorable (not all of them are). You get more powerful opponents or greater benefits from exploring them than you do from exploring a regular lair.
SurahAhriman
Chieftain
- Joined
- Aug 5, 2009
- Messages
- 60
I think the Maelstrom is as well but I am not 100% sure on that.
MagisterCultuum
Great Sage
You cannot explore the Maelstrom. You cannot even really enter the tile, as trying to do so will either kill the unit or move it to a random spot on the map.
Brandeline's Well can also be explored.
Brandeline's Well can also be explored.
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