Backstabbers

[DanF5771]

There is also Blake's nice "Bastard Charts" reposted in ori's attitude thread.

 

[Ai Shizuka]

So, zealots are basically potential backstabbers except they only attack for religious reasons?
Like, their relationship with you doesn't matter. It just matters that you share a faith.

No. But diplo penalties for different religion with people like Isa or Saladin are usually huge, while the bonus for shared religion is huge as well. So they usually attack heathens first.
If you share the same religion with, say, Isabella, but she's not friendly, you are not safe anyway.
In some scenarios she can still prioritize you as a target over another civ with diff religion.

Different story with guys like Justi or Saladin. They don't declare at pleased and shared religion bonus is huge, so you are likely to be safe from religion alone.

 

[nanomage]

btw, does AI peaceweight affect their aggresiveness, or it only affects their attitude to other AIs?

 

[DMOC]

Base peaceweight only affects attitudes in AI-to-AI situations. It has nothing to do with aggressiveness, although more aggressive leaders tend to have lower base peaceweights.

 

[nanomage]

ah , thanks.
one more question too - what does "warmonger respect" exactly mean.
say stalin has WMR of 1, does this mean he has +1 att to all "warmongers" or what?
if so, who is considered "warmonger" here?

 

[Bleys]

Here's the list of backstabbers for anyone that just wants to see it without hunting through the reference sheet.

20% chance to declare at pleased if they decide to war (notorious backstabbers):
-Alexander
-Cathy
-Louis XIV
-Mao
-Monty
-Qin Shi Huang
-Victoria
-Willem

This was close to the line-up of the Backstabber PYL game, if you remove Willem and Mao, and add Ragnar. That was a fun game, too, I played Cathy, got backstabbed 2 or 3 times, heh.

 

[Bleys]

There is also Blake's nice "Bastard Charts" reposted in ori's attitude thread.

Thanks for that link, never saw that before, outstanding chart.

 

[Joshua368]

Thanks for that link, never saw that before, outstanding chart.

It's great, is there a BtS version?

 

[TheMeInTeam]

No. But diplo penalties for different religion with people like Isa or Saladin are usually huge, while the bonus for shared religion is huge as well. So they usually attack heathens first.
If you share the same religion with, say, Isabella, but she's not friendly, you are not safe anyway.
In some scenarios she can still prioritize you as a target over another civ with diff religion.

Different story with guys like Justi or Saladin. They don't declare at pleased and shared religion bonus is huge, so you are likely to be safe from religion alone.

The odds of being declared in non only-neighbor-izzy type situations are miniscule. She's almost insta-annoyed with heathens, so they're the target almost every single time, and before you know it you're friendly with her.

Actually, this applies to toku too. He declares at pleased...but hell if that ever happens without a bribe since he hates everyone else (and he will sign DP's at pleased lol).

 

[JujuLautre]

ah , thanks.
one more question too - what does "warmonger respect" exactly mean.
say stalin has WMR of 1, does this mean he has +1 att to all "warmongers" or what?
if so, who is considered "warmonger" here?

Two AI will have between them a hidden modifier equal to the minimum warmonger respect of both.
So, if one has 0 they will be no bonus, if both have at least 1 they will get +1 reciprocally, and if both have 2, they get +2.

 

[Ai Shizuka]

The odds are miniscule.

Yes, didn't put enough emphasis. Very very unlikely, but not 100% impossible.

Something weird like, I don't know, Zara, you and Isa on the same landmass.
You and Isa run the same religion, but for some reason you don't have open borders. And you have diplo penalties for border tension, arrogant demand, refused tribute and spy trouble.

On the other side Zara has diplo penalty for diff religion, but fav civic bonus, ob and fair trade.

Not sure, but there has to be some extreme scenario where religion isn't enough, even with people like Isa.

 

[oyzar]

If zara have the bonus for civic and izzy doesn't something strange is going on , so bad example, but yes of course it is possible...

 

[Ai Shizuka]

I mean Zara and Isa are both running theocracy and have fav civic bonus with each others, while you are running a different civic.

 

[BarrageQueen]

Hmmm. Very surprised that no one has mentioned the biggest back-stabbers in the game. The human player, of course! Haven't the vast majority of us declared on friendly civs, not to mention the pleased ones in our quest for victory? I guess there could be a minority of unwavering pacifists. If only the AI could speak about back stabbing!

 

[Bleys]

Back Stabbing is the Number 1 tactic of the Human player, with very little doubt. Thats why I never ever whine when an AI does it to me.

I still wonder how a Random Personalities game would go, and if I would be able to identify certain "leaders", like if Toku ends up inside Mansa, heh.

 

[dirtyparrot]

Back Stabbing is the Number 1 tactic of the Human player, with very little doubt. Thats why I never ever whine when an AI does it to me.

I still wonder how a Random Personalities game would go, and if I would be able to identify certain "leaders", like if Toku ends up inside Mansa, heh.

I agree. Like many things, it's a matter of perspective: we hate it when it happens to us but it's OK for us to do it.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

I mean Zara and Isa are both running theocracy and have fav civic bonus with each others, while you are running a different civic.

Why would one have closed borders AND spy trouble ?

 

[Mantic0re]

I really need to dig deeper into this topic. Seems like understanding these reference charts creates some nice opportunities for abuse.


posts like this usually contain 2 pieces of information that I'd like clarified a bit.

1. There is often mention of a delay between the AI decision to declare and the actually DoW. This usually offered up when someone complains that a non-Cathy leader DoW'd them at Friendly. Are there any estimates regarding this timeline? How long is this delay? How long between first contact and the decision roll(s)?

2. Is there a condensed list or chart of GUI hinkiness? I know Vassals introduce hidden modifiers to all things diplomatic but what other mechanisms create hidden modifiers?

I've never actually looked at these reference charts due to some recently resolved computer problems. This may all be in the fine print included in those links.

 

[gfm]

Hmmm. Very surprised that no one has mentioned the biggest back-stabbers in the game. The human player, of course! Haven't the vast majority of us declared on friendly civs, not to mention the pleased ones in our quest for victory? I guess there could be a minority of unwavering pacifists. If only the AI could speak about back stabbing!

Actually, they are Friendly with you... but not the opposite : you never STATE that you're Friendly with them : as the Human Player, you're always Cautious towards everybody else. It's all a matter of perspective, really. Trust me.