Balanced traits for next patch

[Mortac]

So it seems the whole Civ community agrees upon the traits not being balanced. Financial is generally seen as the strongest of these. I have thought of how each trait could get equally balanced, as that would in all honesty be good for the game. It does seem a little strange that Firaxis hasn't taken any serious measures in this matter yet, so let's hope for some balancing for the next patch.

I have gone through each trait and tried to come up with some ideas on how to balance them. Since nobody enjoys "nerfing", I decided that instead of decreasing the strength of the more powerful traits, it would be better to improve the weaker ones.

It would be nice to hear where you agree and disagree on the strength of these traits, because as this discussion grows, we might reach a level where we can (nearly) all agree upon that balance has been reached.

The changes are put in bold text.

Aggressive:
- Free Promotion (Combat I) of all units
- -2 unit support cost per city
- Double Production Speed of Barracks, Stables and Drydock

Charismatic:
- +1 Happiness per City
- -25% Experience Needed for Unit Promotions
- +1 Happiness from Monument and Broadcast Tower

Creative:
- +2 Culture per City
- +5% Research
- Double Production Speed of Library, Theatre, Colosseum

Expansive:
- +2 Health per City
- +1 Food per City
- 25% Faster Production of Worker (working with food!)
- Double Production Speed of Granary, Harbor and Hospital

Financial:
- +1 Gold on Plots with 2 Gold

Imperialistic:
- +100% Great General Emergence
- 50% Faster Production of Settler (working with food!)
- +20% Military unit production

Industrious:
- +50% Wonder Production
- Double Production Speed of Forge and Power Plants

Organised:
- -50% Civic Upkeep
- Double Production Speed of Lighthouse, Factory, Courthouse

Philosophical:
- +100% Great People Birth Rate
- Double Production Speed of University

Protective:
- Free Promotion (City Garrison I, Drill I) of Archery and Gunpowder Units
- +100% Golden Age length
- -25% Espionage Costs
- Double Production Speed of Walls and Castle

Spiritual:
- No Anarchy
- Double Production Speed of Temple, Monastery and Missionaries

 

[noto]

Dude, this thread belongs in general discussions. If you go there you will see I started a thread about exactly this. there's no use in whining about it, though, it only makes sense to change the traits if you're thinking of making a mod. I am currently working on one. Anyway, have you really thought about your suggestions? Have you actually played a mod you made with these changes or something similar to them? For example, you left organized alone, and gave expansive 2 extra food per city. There's no way that's balanced. Also, free specialist in the capital for a philosophical civ??? Are you serious? Like, right at the beginning of the game? That would be WAAAY overpowered. Or maybe you mean when the first specialist slot opens up, like when the first temple or library is built. Even then, I don't think philo needs a boost as it is arguably the strongest trait in the game. I think that used properly it could be number 1, better than financial.

 

[paydro]

Agreed Noto... while Imperialistic and Protective basically remain weak, expansive and creative immediately become overpowered. Do you like the Khmer a lot, Mortac?

 

[Mortac]

This is not in General Discussion because I assume that's for vanilla Civ.

I have adjusted the traits a bit.

No, I don't play Khmer much. I do see how the food bonuses could've gone overboard with them, though.

I don't think Imperialistic looks weak like that. I added another 5% to the production bonus though.

 

[AmazonQueen]

This is not in General Discussion because I assume that's for vanilla Civ.

I have adjusted the traits a bit.

No, I don't play Khmer much. I do see how the food bonuses could've gone overboard with them, though.

I don't think Imperialistic looks weak like that. I added another 5% to the production bonus though.

Aggressive looks OP too now. Free Combat I on all units plus cheap unit support makes it too strong. Its ok as it is.

The only traits I'd change are Financial, Protective, Expansive and Imperialistic. Protective and Expansive don't need major changes made anyway IMO.

 

[TM Moot]

To acheive balanced traits is tricky, as different game styles suit different traits. Personally, I would pick Agg, Cha, Imp as weak, as I'm peace-loving, however, others rank Ind as weak despite it being my favourite!

I guess the problem is that unless you balance all the UU's and UB's as well, having balanced traits alone actually can make overall combinations more unbalanced.

 

[AmazonQueen]

To acheive balanced traits is tricky, as different game styles suit different traits. Personally, I would pick Agg, Cha, Imp as weak, as I'm peace-loving, however, others rank Ind as weak despite it being my favourite!

I guess the problem is that unless you balance all the UU's and UB's as well, having balanced traits alone actually can make overall combinations more unbalanced.

You're right that its hard to get the balance right. I was considering changing Financial to +1 commerce on plots with 3+ commerce. The problem with that is cottage spamming is still strong (although slower to take effect) but Financial is badly affected on water-heavy maps. I want something that weakens it a little overall, not more on some map types than others (at least to that extent).

 

[Mortac]

Yes indeed people with different play styles rank traits differently. I would suppose that, since I never liked Creative or Aggressive, I have a tendency to want to buff them more than others.

I suppose Organised is one example. Some don't seem to like it much, but I think it's rather great still in comparison to Financial due to it being more flexible. It also helps a lot with expansion early on due to the easy courthouses and lighthouses, and it can save you like 100g a turn in the late game.

Expansive is much more useful in harder difficulties as well where you have negatives to health. I consider it nearly useless in lower difficulties than Monarch in comparison to other traits.

 

[King of Town]

I agree there are already like 10 threads like this. That being said, I don't think the traits need to be balenced. I think it helps give civ half levels of difficulty. Like you're good at prince but not good enough for monarch, well play with someone like Charlie for instance, and that will make the game a bit tougher, trait wise. I think if you don't play with one of the economic traits ( philo and fin) you've upped the difficulty a little. If you are going to balence them I think you would be better served to nerf Fin and Philo rather than try and pull the rest up to it. Pulling the rest up is like trying to make ever other UU as good as prat's.

 

[sagji]

For protective rather than reducing the cost of missions I would increase the EP produced by 20% - this will give you more points to spend, slightly reduces mission costs, and increases the cost for others.

 

[SJN]

I know I've introduced this idea before and it was quickly shot down, but I would like to see a trait that adds to somebody's naval power.

I don't have a name for the trait, but I am channeling the Pirate leader from SMAC. Give all naval units a combat promotion. Maybe make pre-caravel units capable of farther travel. Something like that.

 

[mboettcher]

The traits are balanced. Financial doesn't get any form of early building boost and its trait isn't that useful until cottages come around later. Many traits give a big shot in the arm early. Learn how to capitalize on them. The forge and wonders from industrious are huge. With Imperialistic, learn how to use GG's. Aggressive, well, that was already strong. An early veteran army with several promotions? you gotta be kidding me, that is strong enough. Financial in many cases can even be a weaker trait as it isn't so useful under SE or Slave FE's. These are the most powerful forms of government for a long time and some SE situations can extend towards the end of the tech tree (see Germany).

 

[mboettcher]

I know I've introduced this idea before and it was quickly shot down, but I would like to see a trait that adds to somebody's naval power.

I don't have a name for the trait, but I am channeling the Pirate leader from SMAC. Give all naval units a combat promotion. Maybe make pre-caravel units capable of farther travel. Something like that.

This is a cool idea. Especially since there are some naval civs that this would be appropriate for such as the english and the carthaginians.

 

[Mortac]

The traits are balanced. Financial doesn't get any form of early building boost and its trait isn't that useful until cottages come around later. Many traits give a big shot in the arm early. Learn how to capitalize on them. The forge and wonders from industrious are huge. With Imperialistic, learn how to use GG's. Aggressive, well, that was already strong. An early veteran army with several promotions? you gotta be kidding me, that is strong enough. Financial in many cases can even be a weaker trait as it isn't so useful under SE or Slave FE's. These are the most powerful forms of government for a long time and some SE situations can extend towards the end of the tech tree (see Germany).

Not sure what you meant by several promotions. Aggressive gives only one promotion if that's what you meant. I suppose you mean that a unit has two promotions right off the bat with Barracks? In that case, yes, that is rather nice, but it quickly pales in comparison to Charismatic imo. The happiness bonus from that is excellent early on, and the -XP required means that, eventually, Charismatic will even surpass the use of Aggressive over time. In addition, Aggressive becomes useless after gunpower units.

I think Financial is actually great early on as well. I mean, you build cottages around rivers and immediately you'll find yourself with +3 gold tiles that, in addition, produce i.e. +2 food or +1 food/hammer. Financial leaders get a great head start in teching and, oddly enough, expansion as well due to them being able to finance more cities and armies. This, in my view, makes Financial better than Expansive for expanding early on, and that shouldn't be the case.

Both Organised and Expansive are more useful later in the game. Organised does little early on save for the double production bonus (which is rather negligible in comparison to other traits at this time). When you reach the industrial age is when both these traits kick in since health becomes an issue and civic upkeeps are getting very noticeable. However, at this stage, Financial has really kicked in as well because you're likely to have a whole lot of cottages, 2+ gold resources and a bunch of now-improved sea tiles. The main difference here is that Financial has been great since the very first few turns, while the other traits haven't.

I do want to point out that I see your point however, mainly meaning that traits are differently good depending on play style. I'm well aware of that, but it is important that all traits are equally useful for the human player in their own style of play. With this I do not mean that a player with Philosophical should necessarily benefit much from that trait unless he actually takes advantage of it, but I fail to see how i.e. Protective and Expansive can compare to most traits no matter which approach you have.

 

[TheLastOne36]

I still like Noto's balanced traits the best.

Personally i'd add 1 more trait to the game to allow more leaders for existing civs (like a mini expansion pack in a patch ). The trait would be Diplomatic, perhaps giving +1 relations with all leaders, less war weariness and double production speed of a building or two?

So..

Diplomatic
+1 relations with all leaders
25% less war weariness/Leaders who refuse to talk to you, will be able to talk to you 50% faster (which one is better?)
Double production speed of Costums house, Jail, Market, Grocer (obviously not all of those buildings, just 1-3 of them, i'm not really sure which ones, what do you guys think?)

 

[Slashninja1467]

So..

Diplomatic
+1 relations with all leaders
25% less war weariness/Leaders who refuse to talk to you, will be able to talk to you 50% faster (which one is better?)
Double production speed of Costums house, Jail, Market, Grocer (obviously not all of those buildings, just 1-3 of them, i'm not really sure which ones, what do you guys think?)

No.

This would make many so called leaders that would get this trait have virtually one trait in multiplayer considering diplomacy is nothing.

Spiritual does the job anyway.

 

[Slashninja1467]

Sorry for the double post, but those would have to be some helluva 3 good buildings like factory, monument, and markets.

As broken as this would be, how about the builder trait? 10% discount of hammers on all buildings (not wonders). XD

 

[Mortac]

For protective rather than reducing the cost of missions I would increase the EP produced by 20% - this will give you more points to spend, slightly reduces mission costs, and increases the cost for others.

Yes, that's a good idea and I was actually considering just that before. I came to the conclusion though that such a change would make Protective too good for AIs. I consider Protective quite fine as is for AIs, but it needs a little more oomph for human players. Maybe others will disagree.

 

[King of Town]

You guys should shearch for the Consider These Alternate Traits thread. It was a pretty involved discussion and the trait changes were decent. I still didn't like it, but I think there were good ideas there.

 

[mboettcher]

I do want to point out that I see your point however, mainly meaning that traits are differently good depending on play style. I'm well aware of that, but it is important that all traits are equally useful for the human player in their own style of play. With this I do not mean that a player with Philosophical should necessarily benefit much from that trait unless he actually takes advantage of it, but I fail to see how i.e. Protective and Expansive can compare to most traits no matter which approach you have.

You do bring up a good point. I must change my stance a bit in response. Not all traits are balanced, but I do think that all the leaders with their respective civs are pretty well balanced, synergy wise. For example, financial leaders for the english stock exchange or aggressive with civs with early UU (which I agree does not have a large window of opporuntiy but can be a big boost early- btw What I meant by a few promotions is that the combat I unlocks a few stronger promotions for less xp).

As far as protective is concerned. It sucks for a human but its the most annoyiong trait for the computer to get. Especially early. Its not easy to march accross a protective civ.

Traits also do not need to be useful for any style of play. Thats what makes each civ pretty unique. If you are a tanker and choose aztecs then you should probably change your style of play and go to war early.