[Balancing] Writing tech - new idea

[Nimek]

Your mod is great. Playing is comfortable and balnacing enought in prehistoric and ancient era. Great job I am impressed.

But problem starts when I discovered writing tech. (C2C v25)

After i reserched that tech my science points drop aprox. 200 points per turn. What the ...? Even when i turned on civic that writing tech have my reserch is aprox 70 per turn less than before discovering that tech. Now we have situation when the human player will avoid writing tech as long as possible.

In reality discovery of writing was a breakthrough in human history. That tech had a huge impact to development of culture and science. So some tweaks.

Writing tech
+ 1 science point per city + 1 culture point per city (this cause Knowledge inheritance is obsolete)
+25% science in all cites (cause the elder council is obsolete)

Writing makes that buildings obsolete cause it is better itself. AMEN

 

[civfan613]

Nimek
I haven't played too much, but I do remember seeing huge decreases in some stats, not only science, after researching some techs.
I do have a high guess, it simply obsoletes some important buildings, so there is a sudden decrease in civs that have many cities - you will definitely feel a sudden lack of 20 Libraries for example.
Especially, since many buildings in C2C can have numerical output - so turning them off makes a sudden drop.
I've seen this with civics too, long ago.
Needs play-testing, that's all.

 

[Nimek]

Technology means progression and development. I cant understend why after discover of some tech i lost my current achivments. It is stupid and unplayable. If you dont want to change that tell me how to do that. It will be better to give this bonuses to writing and make tech after writing more expensive than leave thing as they are.

 

[Samin]

Writing tech enables School of Scribes which also provides a science bonus.

But most like that big science drop comes from the fact that all your land based science myths become obsolete, i.e. the first time in your civilization's history that superstition makes way for science. This will happen again if you're a heavily religious civilization and research Scientific Method (monestaries with their big science bonuses become obsolete). You can somehow counteract that by getting as many enclosures as possible. But still all the accumulated "knowledge" turns out to be mostly religious superstition which kind of throws you back.

In other words. It's a balancing mechanic.

If you're creating a large empire you don't really want to hold back writing too long anyway because you want to get Monarchy ASAP and that is totally worth that temporary drop in science output.

 

[civfan613]

Samin
I'm still with Nimek on the opinion, that researching NEW stuff shouldn't automatically put you behind.
I'd change it to:
Tech A enables Building LV-2.
Tech B needs Tech A, obsoletes Building LV-1 and gives a boost to Building LV-2.
This would be less drastic.
But in case of buildings that can be built in a turn or two - not much needed anyways.

 

[zeinul]

i think it's ok as is. it would be better though if myths would be obsolete by priesthood, which is prereq for writing. this would make drop in beaker not as sharp as it is now.

 

[civfan613]

zeinul
Huh?
I see it the other way around...
Or did I miss something?

 

[ls612]

Remember, Writing enables diplomacy. Nuff said.

 

[Nimek]

I have another option. Dont make buildings obsolete just discontinue them (discontinue means that old ones stay but you cant build it)

 

[Thunderbrd]

Interesting... nobody here has pointed out that its the sudden loss of all those myth buildings research benefits that causes this plummet at this point... I think the trick is to scatter those losses out throughout various techs rather than focusing them all on a tech that should indicate a step UP in our ability to greater understand things.

 

[MoogleEmpMog]

It would be nice if the dropoff of the Myths was stretched over a longer period, similar to the way Stone Tools Workshop went from being the Most Important Building and then suddenly dying at Bronze Working - making Bronze Working a devastating blow to production AND science - and now it gradually falls off as more metalworking techs are researched, and then finally gets put out of its misery at Iron Working.

For that matter, wasn't the same done with Monasteries? I rarely get much past Scientific Method, but it seems like it now reduces but doesn't eliminate the science boost from monasteries (which is appropriate, since monks like Gregor Mendel were still an important part of the scientific community long after). Later techs finish off the Monastery science boost, after the player has had time to replace it with new buildings like Museums.

The other difference with Scientific Method is that Universities would be built from Education before it hits, and they get better with subsequent techs. As such, the player's biggest source of science is likely to have already shifted when it starts taking away the bonus.

With that in mind, perhaps all or most of the Myths should obsolete at a later tech, so players have time to gets Schools of Scribes up and running first.

Perhaps obsolete a few at Sedentary Lifestyle (made up for by the free tech, oh, and the fact that Workers and Settlers are a huge improvement over Gatherers and Tribes), and then scatter the rest of their obsolescences around the Ancient era techs - not just on the science tree, either. Obsoleting some Myth on production- and military-oriented techs would make Writing much more appealing.

I think it makes sense, too. To hunters with only a stone spear and basic cooperation, the Myth of the Bear is of a nearly invincible monster that only a great hero could overcome. To hunters with bronze spears and chariots, the Myth of the Bear is of the animal the king routinely kills on trips to his hunting preserve. Animals lost their mythical mystique because humans got better at killing and competing with them, not because of writing.

 

[Nimek]

Like always i think you should view at Realism Invictus mod. In that mod when you discover something new it first discontinues some buildings. Further techs make buildings obsolete - so you have time to build new ones before you lose the old ones.

This drastic drop in science was caused by making elder council obsolete (25% bonus in every of my cities)

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

Your mod is great. Playing is comfortable and balnacing enought in prehistoric and ancient era. Great job I am impressed.

But problem starts when I discovered writing tech. (C2C v25)

After i reserched that tech my science points drop aprox. 200 points per turn. What the ...?

So? There are many points in history when advancement stopped and even went in reverse. We can't do "forget a tech" in Civ IV.

The Myth buildings should not be all going obsolete at writing, I am sure I changed that before v25 came out. They were only there to simulate the scientific burst in the early neolithic anyway.

I am working on changing monasteries. They give a % increase which is bad. I will be changing them to give a flat increase over all time with boosts coming in the medieval period and trailing off industrial.

BTW there are a few elements of RI I hate. It's religion spread is one.

Edit It also gives those nations who are behind a chance to catch up.

 

[rightfuture]

So? There are many points in history when advancement stopped and even went in reverse. We can't do "forget a tech" in Civ IV.

We can edit them in and out in the worldbuilder, why can we not program the suppression, or removal of a tech?
Isn't the addition of a tech, like in goody huts, the exact opposite?