Barbarian Trait Broken?
- Thread starter iceboy103
- Start date
MagisterCultuum
Great Sage
Animals all start with Hidden Nationality, so they can attack you while at peace.
Ah thanks!
onedreamer
Dragon
Broken in the sense of useless, yes.
Jean Elcard
The Flavournator
Suggestion: Would be nice if there would be a solution to the "do you want to declare war" question popping up everytime you try to attack an animal, if you are playing a civ with the barbarian trait. It's a bit annoying.
And by the way: Is it possible to declare war to the brabarians in another way than declaring it by attacking an animal or hitting the 150% boundary regarding your collected points?
And by the way: Is it possible to declare war to the brabarians in another way than declaring it by attacking an animal or hitting the 150% boundary regarding your collected points?
Grillick
Prince
Cast an offensive spell inside their territory.
I was playing Hyborem once, and I wanted to help out Acheron, by turning his city square into a Burning Sands to limit who could attack him...Instead, I had to kill him, since it declared war on him without warning.
The without warning part is fixed in the latest version.
I was playing Hyborem once, and I wanted to help out Acheron, by turning his city square into a Burning Sands to limit who could attack him...Instead, I had to kill him, since it declared war on him without warning.
The without warning part is fixed in the latest version.
R0GERSHRUBBER
Shrubber
Perhaps the barbarians could have a leader listed at the bottom of the score list, to make war declaration easier.
Also, how about if barbarians civs could have trade routes with barbarian cities, or perhaps conduct some limited diplomacy (i.e. trade technologies or recommend cities for the barbarian to attack).
Also, some events specific to civs with the barbarian trait would be cool.
Also, how about if barbarians civs could have trade routes with barbarian cities, or perhaps conduct some limited diplomacy (i.e. trade technologies or recommend cities for the barbarian to attack).
Also, some events specific to civs with the barbarian trait would be cool.
MagisterCultuum
Great Sage
I concur (and am pretty sure I suggested the same thing before)
Personally I would much prefer it if the barbs never automatically declared war on barb trait civs, but treated it just like any other civ would. They would probably eventually declare war, since it is likely that the barbs would try pressuring the Barb trait civ into war with the more civilized civs, and they would likely not always agree.
Oh, and you sould be able to gift (or at least liberate) cities to the barbarian state too.
If it isn't made so that barb civs can conduct diplomacy with the barbarian state, then I think that the trait should be removed when the barbs declare war. It might be nice to make it so that the trait made sure the civ remained at peace with the barbs, but then again I'm not sure how that would work with defensive pacts/vassalage. (I was thinking it would be cool for Perpantach to be able to get this trait through his insanity occasionally.)
Personally I would much prefer it if the barbs never automatically declared war on barb trait civs, but treated it just like any other civ would. They would probably eventually declare war, since it is likely that the barbs would try pressuring the Barb trait civ into war with the more civilized civs, and they would likely not always agree.
Oh, and you sould be able to gift (or at least liberate) cities to the barbarian state too.
If it isn't made so that barb civs can conduct diplomacy with the barbarian state, then I think that the trait should be removed when the barbs declare war. It might be nice to make it so that the trait made sure the civ remained at peace with the barbs, but then again I'm not sure how that would work with defensive pacts/vassalage. (I was thinking it would be cool for Perpantach to be able to get this trait through his insanity occasionally.)
I've been mentioning that the Barbarian trait has been broken for the last several versions of FFH2. It really needs to be modified or dropped.
In every game I have played since .23, the Clan or Charadon quickly declare war on the barbarians. They lose the advantage of the peace, yet still incur the penalty to Research that comes with the trait.
I think if you play the Clan or Charadon, you can really use this trait to your advantage and have an interesting game. However, when the AI plays one of these civs/leaders, they end up with a low score and usually are one of the first to be wiped out.
Either change/drop the trait, or somehow make it so they CANNOT declare war on the barbs for a good period of time.
In every game I have played since .23, the Clan or Charadon quickly declare war on the barbarians. They lose the advantage of the peace, yet still incur the penalty to Research that comes with the trait.
I think if you play the Clan or Charadon, you can really use this trait to your advantage and have an interesting game. However, when the AI plays one of these civs/leaders, they end up with a low score and usually are one of the first to be wiped out.
Either change/drop the trait, or somehow make it so they CANNOT declare war on the barbs for a good period of time.
Rex rgis of Ter
Me I'm a Creator
Or remove the research penalty. The Barbarian trait is the only trait with a negative side. Kael said what he liked about civics is that you can't have them all. The same should be applied to traits. Barbarian would be much better if you could just tech decently.
SwordofStriker
Prince
But if you could tech decently, wouldn't you be civilized and not a barbarian?
I've been trying out various civilisations and the barbarian trait is really bad. A -10% to research is a major handicap for only a minor gain. Why not lower unit upkeep and/or produce units faster (the Clans ogre units actually take longer than what they replace).
MagisterCultuum
Great Sage
It isn't too hard to make the Trait do away when the barbs declare war. That's what I did when I just got around to customizing my game today.
Of course I wouldn't mind making their units cheaper, if it can be done without requiring more UUs. Can a Trait increase the rate of military production? I'm thinking making building much but buildings slower would be a good effect.
When I figure out how, I plan to implement a new "brawl" event for Barbarian Trait leaders only, simulating the civ's units fighting each other (possibly killing one of them, probably injuring both and giving a little free xp) when they are on the same tile. (Just for safety, I think I'll make world and national units immune to this.) It may also be appropriate for barb trait unit to be able to brawl with barbarian or other barb trait civ's units too, without causing a full out war.
Personally I don't see a problem with having traits, civics, techs, wonders, buildings, wonders, etc having some negative effects. However, I think effects that could turn out either way are cooler.
Of course I wouldn't mind making their units cheaper, if it can be done without requiring more UUs. Can a Trait increase the rate of military production? I'm thinking making building much but buildings slower would be a good effect.
When I figure out how, I plan to implement a new "brawl" event for Barbarian Trait leaders only, simulating the civ's units fighting each other (possibly killing one of them, probably injuring both and giving a little free xp) when they are on the same tile. (Just for safety, I think I'll make world and national units immune to this.) It may also be appropriate for barb trait unit to be able to brawl with barbarian or other barb trait civ's units too, without causing a full out war.
Personally I don't see a problem with having traits, civics, techs, wonders, buildings, wonders, etc having some negative effects. However, I think effects that could turn out either way are cooler.
Yeah, but then you have a civ with only one trait? Is that fair? That's what you are doing when they declare war, which they always do.
Your fix helps, but wouldn't be possible to not let civs with the BAR trait declare war on the barbs unless certain conditions met: after so many turns, etc.
I agree with your last statement - even though I never like the negative things when they happen to me, they do make the game a lot more interesting and fun!
MagisterCultuum
Great Sage
Well, I would probably add another trait to Charadon also.
(Actually, I've added at least one more trait to every leader already. Since I haven't gotten around to updating Adaptive and Insane yet I removed adaptive from each leader that had it. I haven't updated Insane yet this version, but I remember it isn't as hard to do.)
(Actually, I've added at least one more trait to every leader already. Since I haven't gotten around to updating Adaptive and Insane yet I removed adaptive from each leader that had it. I haven't updated Insane yet this version, but I remember it isn't as hard to do.)
I've been trying out various civilisations and the barbarian trait is really bad. A -10% to research is a major handicap for only a minor gain. Why not lower unit upkeep and/or produce units faster (the Clans ogre units actually take longer than what they replace).
I wouldn't mind the -10% research if the trait worked as advertised, I.E. it allowed for faster expansion. It doesn't. Worse, it removes your opportunity to garner easy XP from Barbarians for no discernible benefit.
If the goal is for Doviello and CoE to expand faster at the expense of tech I would recommend making their settlers cheaper.
I wouldn't mind the -10% research if the trait worked as advertised, I.E. it allowed for faster expansion. It doesn't. Worse, it removes your opportunity to garner easy XP from Barbarians for no discernible benefit.
If the goal is for Doviello and CoE to expand faster at the expense of tech I would recommend making their settlers cheaper.
Blakmane
Prince
- Joined
- Feb 17, 2007
- Messages
- 447
I don't have time to update it at the moment, but i've got a modmod in the works to make the barbarian trait less of a dead weight. So far i've changed the points based auto-declare war mechanic, but I plan to attempt some AI changes, and to add some kind of benefit to offset the research penalty (possibly race based rather than trait based, such as free goblins. I don't really like screwing round with the trait bonii themselves. Although charadon really needs another trait).
*edit*
the reason charadon and CoE tend to declare war on the barbs early on is because their AI is deliberately weighted to be more aggressive. Unfortunately the computer isn't all that smart- it pairs comparitive power ratings and attitude, and declares war based almost entirely from these. So it sees the barbs, notices their rather weak power rating/undefended cities in close proximity, and declares war. There needs to be an AI catch that prevents them from declaring war on the barbs full stop.
*edit*
the reason charadon and CoE tend to declare war on the barbs early on is because their AI is deliberately weighted to be more aggressive. Unfortunately the computer isn't all that smart- it pairs comparitive power ratings and attitude, and declares war based almost entirely from these. So it sees the barbs, notices their rather weak power rating/undefended cities in close proximity, and declares war. There needs to be an AI catch that prevents them from declaring war on the barbs full stop.
Thank you for your explanation, Blakmane. I wondered why this changed in version .23 I think it was. It wasn't always the case that the barbs and CoE/Charadon went to war so early. The point differential was the only mechanism between them and the next civ that caused war. I'm not sure what or why a change was made.
I'll look forward to seeing your modmod.
Roghar
Warlord
i've just started playing doviello for the first time, with the plan of going aggressive early with the beastmen to see if I can get enough early advantage to make up for what they don't have
So far I'm enjoying it, took the Sidar captial, wiping them out, and have my swarms of beastment hunting for the next victim. The +20% city attack plus Aggressive combat promotion really makes a big difference to early rush. This could well be the first game I go for City States without using God King first. Hopefully I gain enough of an advantage to make up for the science penalty and only one trait.
So far I'm enjoying it, took the Sidar captial, wiping them out, and have my swarms of beastment hunting for the next victim. The +20% city attack plus Aggressive combat promotion really makes a big difference to early rush. This could well be the first game I go for City States without using God King first. Hopefully I gain enough of an advantage to make up for the science penalty and only one trait.
