Beserker Rush

[blitzkrieg1980]

That's farther than I go. The Berserks are very good units. Certainly they're no worse than Maces, as drkodos says. In fact, they're a bit better than Maces when used properly with cat/trebuchet support (as you would give any good Mace rush).

I just think that trying to do a Berserk rush with some grand master strategy to use amphibious is going to be seriously underwhelming.

Wodan

Actually, I've used the amphibious assault strategy in the past and it's worked quite well. If taking over the whole of your landmass isn't possible (friends there, or already have whole landmass), then a rush to Chem/Astronomy is perfect! Upgrade all your best Berserkers to Grenadiers, load 'em onto the Galleons, have a couple Galleons filled with Trebuchets, send 'em over to your enemy with a bunch of frigates, and you can easily take all their coastal cities. The Financial trait comes into play perfectly here, combined with Bureaucracy(sp?) you can afford to have this intercontinental force and not fall too behind on tech. Plus you can always trade Astronomy to your friends for a bunch of decent techs you may have skipped to get there.

 

[Wodan]

Actually, I've used the amphibious assault strategy in the past and it's worked quite well. If taking over the whole of your landmass isn't possible (friends there, or already have whole landmass), then a rush to Chem/Astronomy is perfect! Upgrade all your best Berserkers to Grenadiers, load 'em onto the Galleons, have a couple Galleons filled with Trebuchets, send 'em over to your enemy with a bunch of frigates, and you can easily take all their coastal cities. The Financial trait comes into play perfectly here, combined with Bureaucracy(sp?) you can afford to have this intercontinental force and not fall too behind on tech. Plus you can always trade Astronomy to your friends for a bunch of decent techs you may have skipped to get there.

That's exactly my point, Blitz. Berserksers are best used not as Berserks but as mere stepping stones to the later units.

Not only is it not historical, but it sets the player up for fall because you don't want to raid with them except in a purely casual way... you don't want to risk them dying because they're going to be too valuable later on.

Wodan

 

[shivute]

I don't like the Vikings!
There, that is a strong statement.

The Vikings were the new civ that instantly appealed to me and I have played them a lot and am subsequently disappointed.

I believe the UU is only slightly better than a maceman (I love the amphib promo though and it rocks with riflemen and infantry, but the AI doesn't tend to build too many coastal cities.) A maceman rush is strong and can be effective but a beserker rush wouldn't be much different.
I also believe the UB is pretty pathetic in comparison to something like the Ottoman aqueduct. An extra ship movement point doesn't exactly get me excited.
Therefore the only thing I think the Vikings really have going for them is the trait combo. This is good due to financial as you will want a few coastal cities and also the aggressive helps the UU out.

 

[blitzkrieg1980]

I like the UB, because if you are the first to circumnavigate(which you should be as the Vikings!) and after you grab refrigeration, your navy can fly around the globe! I like having a really bad-ass navy and the AI usually gets screwed b/c it doesn't build a very large one.

@Wodan, true to all you say, man. If Berzerkers replaced Swordsmen, that would be different entirely. It would give new reason to building up a large early navy (of galleys/triremes) as AI will build coast cities early on (as long as there is a coast!) and take them out on 2 fronts. In fact, I think I will mod this after my current game is over. It's real easy to mod this (change 1 statement in an XML file)

 

[drkodos]

.
I also believe the UB is pretty pathetic in comparison to something like the Ottoman aqueduct.

I gotta agree with that 100%. I think the Hamman may be the Cadillac of UB's.

But back to the Upgradable, Double-Axe weilding Zerks: @Wodan. Allow me to accept your premise totally (for sake of discussion and your potential persuassion into a line of thinking more conducive to your high intelligence .)and say that OK their uprgradability is their best asset. How does this make them a bad UU? I think it makes them even better. Is there any other Civ that has a beefed Grenadier as their UU? A CR3 Zerk upgraded into an amphibious CR Rifleman smokes even a Redcoat and borders on the obscene.

 

[Wodan]

I gotta agree with that 100%. I think the Hamman may be the Cadillac of UB's.

But back to the Upgradable, Double-Axe weilding Zerks: @Wodan. Allow me to accept your premise totally (for sake of discussion and your potential persuassion into a line of thinking more conducive to your high intelligence .)and say that OK their uprgradability is their best asset. How does this make them a bad UU? I think it makes them even better. Is there any other Civ that has a beefed Grenadier as their UU? A CR3 Zerk upgraded into an amphibious CR Rifleman smokes even a Redcoat and borders on the obscene.

Historically it's ludicrous.

In the game it sets up the player because it's nonintuitive, you don't want to risk your Berserks in early combat, you want to save them. Seriously, a new player starts and asks for strats for playing Vikings. And we tell them to build up a huge army of Berserks but NOT to use them except just a couple of times in weak cities they could easily obtain through other means.

Players will naturally WANT to use the Berserks. But the design of them is not conducive to seaborne pillaging (and return to the ship), the game timing of them is not conducive to seaborne city taking (except as a nickle-dime sideshow, which is counterintuitive to the very idea of a UU), and other benefits such as attacking across a river simply smacks of hunting for a silver lining.

Finally because there have been quite a few other ways which have been suggested of implementing this UU which do not have these drawbacks. I don't mean to get down on Firaxis since there's so much they did right, but in this case I think there are several other options which would have been a superior choice for design of the UU.

Wodan

 

[Wodan]

I gotta agree with that 100%. I think the Hamman may be the Cadillac of UB's.

The cripple stool is the cadillac of the poopin' stools.

Sorry, couldn't help myself.

Wodan

 

[blitzkrieg1980]

How about making the bezerkers replace swordsmen (like the praetorians). Although this is historically rediculous, I think it would create a new dynamic of building up a rather large navy very early on for city raiding and conquering via the seas early in the game. I don't know, just some ideas.

 

[drkodos]

Historically it's ludicrous.

In the game it sets up the player because it's nonintuitive, you don't want to risk your Berserks in early combat, you want to save them. Seriously, a new player starts and asks for strats for playing Vikings. And we tell them to build up a huge army of Berserks but NOT to use them except just a couple of times in weak cities they could easily obtain through other means.

Hold it right there. WE did not tell them...YOU told them.

I advocate the use of Beserkers. Just because I diplomatically and rhetorically accept your premise that their BEST benefit may be their upgradability does not mean I am buying the rest of your wares!

Players will naturally WANT to use the Berserks.

And they should. They are a great unit. Perhaps one of the very best UU's, according to many, myself included. They have a wide range of uses. Saying they should not use them is equal to saying they should not use Macemen.

But the design of them is not conducive to seaborne pillaging (and return to the ship),

Uh, yes, it is. What unit in that era is better? Mix them up with some Cats and invade normally with them then. What's the problem? Their CR promo is still beneficial even if they are used non-amphibiously. Is there some reason why a regular Maceman would be better in this scenario? There is not.

Finally because there have been quite a few other ways which have been suggested of implementing this UU which do not have these drawbacks. I don't mean to get down on Firaxis since there's so much they did right, but in this case I think there are several other options which would have been a superior choice for design of the UU.

Wodan

There are ALWAYS options that could make any unit better. That is yet another fallacious bit of reasoning you are using to support your now mostly untenable position that Beserkers are not worthy. I have come to expect so much more from a deep thinking, philosophical poster such as yourself. I guess I will have to learn to live with the disappointment.




Beserker rushes are awesome. I have won several games at levels up to and including Monarch with the Vikings and in each and every on, Beserkers played prominent roles. Of course, exploiting the Oracle for the CS slingshot (and then beelining to Machinery) was a big part of it, but regradless, I was able to fully exploit their amphibious potential on both land-based excursions and trans-continental forays. So, if we are going to get back to addressing the real point of the thread, why not allow people that at least support the unit make their case for its use?

just sayin.

 

[Wodan]

Hold it right there. WE did not tell them...YOU told them.

Don't quibble over language.

And they should. They are a great unit. Perhaps one of the very best UU's, according to many, myself included. They have a wide range of uses. Saying they should not use them is equal to saying they should not use Macemen.

Exactly my point.

We agree that they have several benefits and that the upgradability of amphib is the best of those benefits while the amphib uses are limited by:
1) lack of seaborne bombardment
2) lack of oceangoing transport
3) preponderance of longbow defenders on above Noble skill levels
4) presence of any of hill/walls/culture defenses

Whether you agree for "sake of argument" or not, we base a conclusion off of that. Going back and saying it's a circular argument means you didn't really agree. It's not my fault it's a Catch-22.

Uh, yes, it is. What unit in that era is better? Mix them up with some Cats and invade normally with them then. What's the problem?

What I was talking about was the possibility of disembarking, pillaging, and returning to ship in the same turn. Now THAT would be a cool ability for a Viking!

Their CR promo is still beneficial even if they are used non-amphibiously. Is there some reason why a regular Maceman would be better in this scenario? There is not.

Didn't say there was. I've always agreed that the city attack benefit is a nice bonus.

There are ALWAYS options that could make any unit better. That is yet another fallacious bit of reasoning you are using to support your now mostly untenable position that Beserkers are not worthy. I have come to expect so much more from a deep thinking, philosophical poster such as yourself. I guess I will have to learn to live with the disappointment.

Drkodos, my whole point is NOT to say that Berserks are useless. Of course they're nice units!

Beserker rushes are awesome. I have won several games at levels up to and including Monarch with the Vikings and in each and every on, Beserkers played prominent roles.

Sorry for turning your argument back on you, but is there anything that says normal Maces wouldn't have done just as well?

So, if we are going to get back to addressing the real point of the thread, why not allow people that at least support the unit make their case for its use?

Fine by me. Maybe you guys can point out some strategy that I failed to use in the 7-8 games where I tried to get some utility out of the Berserks (that I couldn't have gotten out of normal Maces). If so, I'll be in your debt.

Wodan

 

[blitzkrieg1980]

^^^@Wodan, what an apt quote for the topic at hand .

As to your request for strategies you might not have used...
How about an archipelago map using like 6 galleys carrying Berserkers, and 4 carrying trebuchet and maybe a pikeman or 2? Travel to another sea-friendly civ, and take it over no problem. Dump the trebuchet next to the coast city with pikemen there to defend from horsearchers and the like. Bombard/collateral damage, send in berserkers.

Not exactly my ideal situation for amphibious attack, but perhaps a viable one. Once again (and I can't stress this enough), maybe if berserkers replaced swordsmen or maybe became available with Metal Casting, that would be better.

 

[Wodan]

As to your request for strategies you might not have used...
How about an archipelago map using like 6 galleys carrying Berserkers, and 4 carrying trebuchet and maybe a pikeman or 2? Travel to another sea-friendly civ, and take it over no problem. Dump the trebuchet next to the coast city with pikemen there to defend from horsearchers and the like. Bombard/collateral damage, send in berserkers.

Tried that many times, on archipelago and other maps. Good thought, Blitz, but here's where I ran into trouble.
-- You need to land more than "a pikeman or 2" to defend. At least 2 Berserks (to defend against Axes and Maces).
-- What're the benefits of this strategy? You preserve your attacking Berserks from counterattacking cats. However, collateral damage affects only a limited number of units in the stack. You just described an assault including 20 (!) units. One or even two cats are not going to scratch all those. What're the chances he has more than 2 defending cats nearby? Slim to none. Thus, the benefit of this strategy is nil. Just land them all. You still get the 10% Berserk city attack bonus, but otherwise you could have used normal Maces.

Once again (and I can't stress this enough), maybe if berserkers replaced swordsmen or maybe became available with Metal Casting, that would be better.

Agreed.

Wodan

 

[blitzkrieg1980]

...What're the benefits of this strategy? You preserve your attacking Berserks from counterattacking cats. However, collateral damage affects only a limited number of units in the stack. You just described an assault including 20 (!) units. One or even two cats are not going to scratch all those. What're the chances he has more than 2 defending cats nearby? Slim to none. Thus, the benefit of this strategy is nil. Just land them all. You still get the 10% Berserk city attack bonus, but otherwise you could have used normal Maces.

I really have nothing on this . What you say is pretty much irrefutable. However, if Berserkers became available earlier (like we said above) this strategy might be much more useful as cultural defense will be much less of a factor. It might actually OP the bezerker b/c it would be stronger than the Praet, which we can all agree is right on the virge of being way OP. Might have to make the STR a bit lower (7 instead of 8?)

 

[drkodos]

Some Beserker Rush thoughts:

~ I don't use Stacks so much as I use waves. Greater flexibility for me with several smaller "stacks" than going for a beserker SOD. With a inter-hemisphere, galley-beserker-agua-assualt, I am often using the same overworked ships to ferry troops that come in waves anyway.


~ I like trying to generate a Great General to attach to a single Veteran Beserker (with CR2 +) for all the promos and include the terrain movement bonus as one promo in addition to Command promo (faster promos) and a few first strikes in addition to make him the city breaker. Match him up with a horse archer and he becomes a true leader that can both reconnoiter, pillage, defend, and crack skulls at the front lines of the city siege. Sufficient pre-Machinery warmongering with Axes can generate Two Great Generals; one for an Academy and the next one for Hagar the Horrible.

~ While it is true that the Naval game mechanics are a bit broken, I believe it is a bit of a mistake to underestimate the power of an additional movement (or two) when it comes to defense and actually using ships in a proactive fashion. As Astronomy takes over and the oceans open up, Frigates can actually keep the homeland safe from counter invasion. A small fleet of ships can actively patrol like a coast guard while our now upgraded (!!) (and very veteran with many promotions) beserkers are CR3 Grenadiers mixed with cannons and are getting ready to run across the next continent like Patton did across Europe.

~ Amphibious promotion. Useful across rivers and also it frequently can save a movement turn or two while staging the attack. It is nice to be able to use it to siege across a river while the enemy suffers the penalty if the try to counter attack out of their city. Is it a game breaker Of course not, nor should it, or any other UU characteristic be a game breaking, panacea. It adds yet one more option, and in a game where multiple pathways are cherished, I think it is a great option to have. It is also very useful on Pangea maps to invade coastal cities. I think that the concept that only arichipleago maps suit the Vikings is not wholly correct. True, that map type feeds into their strengths, but these attributes of attacking from the sea and having additional water movement can have tremendous benefits in moving a large scale invasion fleet to another point on the same continent. It is especially fun to coordinate a simultaneous land and sea attack and the Vikings make this a very doable strategy on several map types (Great Plains?!)


~ Tech path is key. With a CS slingshot, it is really almost an exploit. It is very easy to have DOZENS of Beserkers going after cities that have only archers, spears, and axes as their best defenders. Even with your opponents grabbing Feudalism, it takes while before the AI can fully retool and get all Longbows up.

~ Without the Slingshot, the window is appreciably smaller, but with the right tech path, it is still a nice window of several hundred years before you see all your opponents cities defended with twin Longbows. I do not wait around for construction before using the Beserkers to conquer at least one or two Civ's. In fact, I think the Beserker allows me to push Construction back a while so I can go after Feudalism myself to grab an early capitulated Vassal that may have some resources. Instead of straining my pre-currency economy with baby-sitting a bunch of newly captured cities, I pick a few plums, allow the Vassal to work the one city that is only there to grab the Wine (or some such resource). Grabbing the Vassaled Civ early helps the economy because you just keep going to the well for money (exploit?).

~ More tech path. Becasue I keep Construction off for a while, I grab Math but then Currency to cash-cow whatever techs I can starting to build the warchest for the Beserker upgrades. Construction usually comes as a fill-in tech while re-organizing the REX-ed Viking Empire which takes the cue, grabbing a quick breather when Feudalistic Longbows become a sticking point. Now its time to just reload, re-aim, and get ready to refire. OR, one could now choose to become illuminated & civilized, keeping the present enormous chunk of real estate won by Beserkers and now easily defended with beefed-up Grenadiers then Rifles while aiming for some other type of victory.

 

[blitzkrieg1980]

^^^Good stuff. Will employ CS slingshot as described in next Viking game.

 

[Samurai 2006]

weasel77066, I love your pic of Ragnar killing Isabella
edit: and oh yeah! Berserkers rule! I just let my tech tree beeline for Civil service and try to build oracle in one city and trading posts and galleys in others. I LOVE IT

 

[weasel77066]

weasel77066, I love your pic of Ragnar killing Isabella
edit: and oh yeah! Berserkers rule! I just let my tech tree beeline for Civil service and try to build oracle in one city and trading posts and galleys in others. I LOVE IT

Thank you. I will tell the artist......... He'll get a big head over it. He is a 12 yr old with alot of ambition

 

[DrewBledsoe]

Hi Friend.

I'm a Nigerian Prince who can get you beserkers fast!
Just send me your bank account details for "authentication purposes" and those beserkers will be right on their way.

Yours truly.

Mr Con Scammer

Thanks for making me grin, more tongue in cheek humour is needed on this forum atm

and to weasel, I wouldn't kill Isabella, no she's far to cute, just keep her as my erm *cough* slave (mumbles this is getting far to sordid and wanders off)......

 

[weasel77066]

I have to respectively disegree with you. That hoe is never up to no good. I go for her head first...... Its a much much better option that to belittle myself to her un-reasonable demands.

 

[DrewBledsoe]

I have to respectively disegree with you. That hoe is never up to no good. I go for her head first...... Its a much much better option that to belittle myself to her un-reasonable demands.

I think you missed my point, of course I'd take every last Spanish city (its in the rules) but if possible keep her as, well,..what I said above