Best Designed Civ Elimination Thread

[redwings1340]

Over the course of the elimination threads, I noticed a consistent pattern emerge. Most people (and generally the views that won out) were voting based on a civ's power, while others were voting on how interesting the civ is to play. In the threads before we've been mostly voting off of power, but in this thread, I want you to vote off based on what civs you like and dislike the designs for.

As Navelgazer put it in the UA thread:

Spoiler :

Put another way, I just don't want the devs to get bad ideas. The UA should be something you exploit in creative ways, not just have happen to you. If a civ had a UA that allowed their capital to never be captured and gave them an instant win condition upon reaching the Medieval era it would be immensely powerful. It would also be awful design. Of the four remaining contenders, Inca have the best-designed UA. The others are just passive and OP due to lack of foresight, in my opinion.

So, this thread, instead of being based on power, is going to be based on civs we like and want to see more of in the future (civ VI devs and modders, pay attention), and the civs we find bland and boring. Power may be related to your decision in this thread, but should be independent of your votes.

In this thread, upvotes are +2, and downvotes are -4.

Voting can occur once every 24 hours. Please try to state your reasoning for your vote. I will start.

America- 20
Arabia- 20
Assyria- 20
Austria - 20
Aztec- 20
Babylon- 20
Brazil-20
Byzantium- 20
Carthage- 20
Celts- 20
China- 20
Danes- 22 This civ, while terrible in practice, I really like in theory. This is so close to being a unique and awesome civ that relies on pillaging and quick costal raids that I'm giving it an upvote. A bit more work on this civ (more incentive to pillage), and I think this could be one of the most fun and creative civs in the game.
Dutch- 20
Egypt- 16 This civ is the epitome of a standard vanila civ, when the game was less interesting. The UA is powerful but passive, the UU is just a stronger version of the unit it replaces (I don't like UUs that have higher combat strength and basically nothing else), and the UB, while cool, just gives some flat uncreative bonuses. The UB's side effect of giving others an incentive to invade you is cool and fitting with Egypt's history, but that's really the only interesting part about this civ.
EDIT: I suppose the UU doesn't require horses, but getting nothing special on upgrading to a knight is pretty bad (especially for an early UU), and it's a bad unit in general, so I'm not changing my vote.
England- 20
Ethiopia- 20
France- 20
Germany-20
Greece- 20
Huns- 20
Inca- 20
India- 20
Indonesia- 20
Iroquois- 20
Japan- 20
Korea- 20
Maya- 20
Mongols- 20
Morocco- 20
Ottoman- 20
Persia- 20
Poland- 20
Polyneisa- 20
Portugal- 20
Rome- 20
Russia- 20
Shoshone- 20
Siam- 20
Songhai- 20
Spain- 20
Sweden- 20
Venice- 20
Zulu- 20

 

[Dgodus]

Doesn't the egypt uu not require horses? That is something that sets it apart from being just a stronger version (much like Iroquois Mohawks iirc)

 

[redwings1340]

Doesn't the egypt uu not require horses? That is something that sets it apart from being just a stronger version (much like Iroquois Mohawks iirc)

That's true. It still gets nothing on upgrading from a war chariot though, and is generally regarded as one of the worst UUs of the game. If you have an early UU I think it should get something on promotion. I suppose my wording wasn't the best, but it's still pretty bland. I'll edit that post.

 

[Arcaian]

America- 20
Arabia- 20
Assyria- 20
Austria - 20
Aztec- 20
Babylon- 20 - 4 = 16 Ridiculously bad design - I really enjoy playing Babylon, one of my favourite Civs - but the design sucks. 50% increase in GS generation is a boring passive, free GS at writing is arguably overpowered and changes nothing because you beeline writing anyway, the UU is a vaguely interesting design but 50% of the time archers are in your city anyway - especially with Tradition - and the UB is just an upgrade on walls.
Brazil-20
Byzantium- 20+2 = 22 I like the design for this - religion only ever gets the 4 beliefs, plus one reformation. Most of the religion civs work by getting a bonus to early faith, this is the only one that gives you a 'better' religion. Means you have to alter your game to focus on early faith, but in return get a larger reward. Doesn't work well in practice, but I like the theory. Little bit of work needed!
Carthage- 20
Celts- 20
China- 20
Danes- 22
Dutch- 20
Egypt- 16
England- 20
Ethiopia- 20
France- 20
Germany-20
Greece- 20
Huns- 20
Inca- 20
India- 20
Indonesia- 20
Iroquois- 20
Japan- 20
Korea- 20
Maya- 20
Mongols- 20
Morocco- 20
Ottoman- 20
Persia- 20
Poland- 20
Polyneisa- 20
Portugal- 20
Rome- 20
Russia- 20
Shoshone- 20
Siam- 20
Songhai- 20
Spain- 20
Sweden- 20
Venice- 20
Zulu- 20


By the way, awesome thread idea! I like this one

 

[reddishrecue]

Are all civs on here (GK, DLC and BNW)?
America- 20
Arabia- 20
Assyria- 20
Austria - 20
Aztec- 20
Babylon- 20
Brazil-20
Byzantium- 20
Carthage- 20
Celts- 20
China- 20
Danes- 20
Dutch- 20
Egypt- 20
England- 20
Ethiopia- 20
France- 20
Germany-20
Greece- 20
Huns- 20
Inca- 20
India- 20
Indonesia- 20
Iroquois- 20
Japan- 20
Korea- 20
Maya- 20
Mongols- 20
Morocco- 20
Ottoman- 20
Persia- 20
Poland- 20
Polyneisa- 20
Portugal- 20
Rome- 20
Russia- 20
Shoshone- 20
Siam- 20
Songhai- 20
Spain- 20
Sweden- 20
Venice- 20
Zulu- 20

Hmm.. they all seem unique in their own way.

 

[Merciorum]

Do we honestly need this? Do we not have enough of these?

 

[redwings1340]

Do we honestly need this? Do we not have enough of these?

We don't need it at all by any means, just as we don't need anything on this website. I thought it might be interesting to see what people regard as fun and good design in the game. If people turn out to be not interested in this thread though, I will let it fall in to the abyss of unnoticed threads not on the front page.

I probably should have waited for a little bit more discussion on the overall civ thread where I proposed this before making it. Oh well, it's here now, and it's up to everyone else whether they want to vote on it.

 

[leadtothehead]

America- 20
Arabia- 20
Assyria- 20
Austria - 20 - 4 = 16 The UA seems abit of a head scratcher and isn't the most functional, the coffee house is nice and historically founded but overall I find the UA too out of place.
Aztec- 20
Babylon- 16
Brazil-20
Byzantium- 22
Carthage- 20
Celts- 20
China- 20
Danes- 22
Dutch- 20
Egypt- 16
England- 20
Ethiopia- 20
France- 20
Germany-20
Greece- 20
Huns- 20
Inca- 20
India- 20
Indonesia- 20
Iroquois- 20
Japan- 20
Korea- 20
Maya- 20
Mongols- 20 + 2 = 22 Yeah its a easy civilization to design but they did a really good job with it, the UUs really capture the fast moving military machine that was the Mongols.
Morocco- 20
Ottoman- 20
Persia- 20
Poland- 20
Polyneisa- 20
Portugal- 20
Rome- 20
Russia- 20
Shoshone- 20
Siam- 20
Songhai- 20
Spain- 20
Sweden- 20
Venice- 20
Zulu- 20

 

[Kallowe]

America- 20
Arabia- 20
Assyria- 20
Austria - 18
Aztec- 20
Babylon- 12
Brazil-20
Byzantium
Carthage- 20
Celts- 20
China- 20
Danes- 22
Dutch- 20
Egypt- 16
England- 20
Ethiopia- 20
France- 20
Germany-20
Greece- 20
Huns- 20
Inca- 20
India- 20
Indonesia- 20
Iroquois- 20
Japan- 20
Korea- 20
Maya- 20
Mongols- 22
Morocco- 20
Ottoman- 20
Persia- 20
Poland- 20
Polynesia- 20
Portugal- 20
Rome- 20
Russia- 20
Shoshone- 20
Siam- 22
Songhai- 20
Spain- 20
Sweden- 20
Venice- 20
Zulu- 20

Babylon is better at science, the most important resource in the game, while their unique building and unit are widely considered useless. I feel that increasing science is something that should be done either not at all or with an incredibly light touch since so much of the game depends on the technology levels.

Siam while maybe not the best designed civ ever is more interesting than some others because it's ability focuses on being friends with city states while not necessarily allies.

 

[Josh123914]

America- 16 This was a tough one, because initially I was gonna chose one that had absolutely no reason to exist in its current form, (so the Huns?) but then I decided not to, because the Huns are actually fun to play as. So I chose America, who in its current form as as well not even have a UA. Seriously, a warmonger needs more than just +1 sight and a tad more culture.
Arabia- 20
Assyria- 20
Austria - 18
Aztec- 20
Babylon- 12
Brazil-20
Byzantium-22
Carthage- 20
Celts- 20
China- 20
Danes- 22
Dutch- 20
Egypt- 16
England- 20
Ethiopia- 20
France- 20
Germany-20
Greece- 20
Huns- 20
Inca- 20
India- 20
Indonesia- 20
Iroquois- 20
Japan- 20
Korea- 20
Maya- 20
Mongols- 22
Morocco- 20
Ottoman- 20
Persia- 20
Poland- 20
Polynesia- 20
Portugal- 22 Playing as Portugal makes you FEEL like you have a vast trading empire. Feitorias are great coastal garrisons / City state resource snatchers and Nau's help you find new lands and territories to plonk Feitorias on top of. It just feels appropriate.
Rome- 20
Russia- 20
Shoshone- 20
Siam- 22
Songhai- 20
Spain- 20
Sweden- 20
Venice- 20
Zulu- 20

 

[Sagax]

America- 12 - people have already stated how bland America is in this game. So far no matter how I try to play as the US I just don't feel like I am playing a unique civ.
Arabia- 20
Assyria- 20
Austria - 18
Aztec- 20
Babylon- 12
Brazil-20
Byzantium-22
Carthage- 20
Celts- 20
China- 22 - I don't think that China's overall design is the best one. However, for now I will give it a vote for having one of the best UA+UU+UB synergies in the game. While historically China is certainly not all about war, its military activity in the Ancient-Medieval eras had a huge impact, and the civ's gameplay reflects it nicely.
Danes- 22
Dutch- 20
Egypt- 16
England- 20
Ethiopia- 20
France- 20
Germany-20
Greece- 20
Huns- 20
Inca- 20
India- 20
Indonesia- 20
Iroquois- 20
Japan- 20
Korea- 20
Maya- 20
Mongols- 22
Morocco- 20
Ottoman- 20
Persia- 20
Poland- 20
Polynesia- 20
Portugal- 22
Rome- 20
Russia- 20
Shoshone- 20
Siam- 22
Songhai- 20
Spain- 20
Sweden- 20
Venice- 20
Zulu- 20

 

[Beaver79]

America- 12
Arabia- 20
Assyria- 20
Austria - 18
Aztec- 20
Babylon- 12
Brazil-16 = 20 - 4
Byzantium-22
Carthage- 20
Celts- 20
China- 22
Danes- 22
Dutch- 20
Egypt- 16
England- 20
Ethiopia- 20
France- 20
Germany-22 = 20 + 2
Greece- 20
Huns- 20
Inca- 20
India- 20
Indonesia- 20
Iroquois- 20
Japan- 20
Korea- 20
Maya- 20
Mongols- 22
Morocco- 20
Ottoman- 20
Persia- 20
Poland- 20
Polynesia- 20
Portugal- 22
Rome- 20
Russia- 20
Shoshone- 20
Siam- 22
Songhai- 20
Spain- 20
Sweden- 20
Venice- 20
Zulu- 20

- to Brazil because I find jungle no production starts to be the most boring game imaginable.

+ to Germany. I absolutely HATE their UA. You get 10 weak troops (and lose out on barb camp gold) way too early and you have to either delete them or early warmonger. I can't bring myself to delete 6-7 units so I always go after my neighbor. I can usually take 2 capitals and then everyone DoWs me. You are powerful from having 3 capitals so early, but everyone is at war with you the whole game and it makes it very very unique and action packed every turn of the game. Even on marathon.

 

[gaerraty]

America - 8 (–4)
Arabia - 20
Assyria - 20
Austria - 18
Aztec - 20
Babylon - 12
Brazil - 16
Byzantium - 22
Carthage - 20
Celts - 20
China - 22
Danes - 24 (+2)
Dutch - 20
Egypt - 16
England - 20
Ethiopia - 20
France - 20
Germany - 22
Greece - 20
Huns - 20
Inca - 20
India - 20
Indonesia - 20
Iroquois - 20
Japan - 20
Korea - 20
Maya - 20
Mongols - 22
Morocco - 20
Ottoman - 20
Persia - 20
Poland - 20
Polynesia - 20
Portugal - 22
Rome - 20
Russia - 20
Shoshone - 20
Siam - 22
Songhai - 20
Spain - 20
Sweden - 20
Venice - 20
Zulu - 20

America (–4): Clearly the most uninteresting civilization. While both American unique units are quite feasible with their promotions, they are dull as any ordinary trained military unit. Discount for purchasing tiles saves some money, yet it is even more dull than the unique units. Additional visibility radius potentially reveal things one hex earlier and could end up being the most interesting ability America has.

Danes (+2): Danes have two very interesting game altering features and one bland and boring one (to balance things I guess...). Danish unique ability to move and attack quickly from water as well as no need to pay movement points for pillaging are incredibly fun, useful and game altering. The unique unit – Berserker – is brilliant: it moves faster (potentially even more pillaging!) and Amphibious promotion synergies greatly with their unique ability. But the real killer is that devastatingly powerful Berserkers are available at Metal Casting which is very key technology compared to Steel which is not. All good so far – unfortunately Norwegian Ski Infantry ruins everything... it is uninteresting and limited. Danes could be potentially very compelling civilization if the dull unique unit would be replaced with suitable unique building or improvement with religious and warmongering benefits. They get my up vote for two design successes.

 

[rkade8583]

America - 8
Arabia - 20
Assyria - 20
Austria - 18
Aztec - 20
Babylon - 12
Brazil - 16
Byzantium - 22
Carthage - 20
Celts - 20+2=22 I like my Celts. I'd prefer Scottish but I go with the blood that brought me.
China - 22
Danes - 24
Dutch - 20
Egypt - 16
England - 20
Ethiopia - 20
France - 20
Germany - 22
Greece - 20
Huns - 20
Inca - 20
India - 20
Indonesia - 20
Iroquois - 20
Japan - 20
Korea - 20
Maya - 20
Mongols - 22
Morocco - 20
Ottoman - 20
Persia - 20
Poland - 20
Polynesia - 20
Portugal - 22
Rome - 20
Russia - 20
Shoshone - 20
Siam - 22
Songhai - 20-4=16 This is the American public education system at work. Who?
Spain - 20
Sweden - 20
Venice - 20
Zulu - 20

 

[Enrico Swagolo]

America - 8
Arabia - 20
Assyria - 20
Austria - 18
Aztec - 20
Babylon - 12
Brazil - 16
Byzantium - 18
Carthage - 20
Celts -22
China - 22
Danes - 24
Dutch - 20
Egypt - 16
England - 20
Ethiopia - 20
France - 20
Germany - 22
Greece - 20
Huns - 20
Inca - 20
India - 20
Indonesia - 20
Iroquois - 20
Japan - 20
Korea - 20
Maya - 20
Mongols - 22
Morocco - 20
Ottoman - 20
Persia - 20
Poland - 20
Polynesia - 20
Portugal - 22
Rome - 20
Russia - 20
Shoshone - 20
Siam - 22
Songhai - 16
Spain - 20
Sweden - 20
Venice - 22
Zulu - 20

-4 to Byzantium.

...

Why would anyone upvote this vile thing? How is giving a medieval nation TWO units in unfitting eras good design? Dromon doesn't fit ancient era at all. Cataphract doesn't fit early classical at all.

How is giving a civ everything so early in the game a good design? Ancient Era UU, early classical UU while you need to focus on faith at the same time if you don't want your UA to be completely useless. That's badly designed to put all eggs in one (ancient/classical) basket, because so early on you're simply unable to use everything.

As Byzantium it's pretty much a choice between two UU's that, despite being early, give no promotions on upgrade (not sure on Dromon?), or actually having an UA. That's the only nation that does such a stupid thing. The UA requires your attention and putting actual effort unlike most others, which would perhaps be a good design thing, but because of those two UU's you have at the same time that completely don't fit anything else in the civ... Hell no.

Is there any synergy in this civ? That's also a thing of design, I think. Well, anyway - there's not. Cataphract has no real connection to Dromon, and neither does anything with the UA.

Not to mention the fact that Byzantium and Ancient Greece have UU's in the same eras. That really shouldn't have happened.


+2 to Venice. It's fun to play from time to time, and very unique. I like this out of the box approach, as it's completely different to most other civilizations. Did I mention it's fun? Yeah, I did.

It maybe has some flaws (looking at all those unclaimed lands, having to wait until the enemy actually settles something worthwhile, requires patience when looking at bad AI not settling perfect spots and instead taking bad tundras), but I'd really love to see Venice again in Civ6.

Merchant of Venice is a thing with great design. It actually synergizes with the UA - Venice can't settle because of the UA, so it compensates for this fact by either stealing you some CS's as puppets or giving you twice as much stuff. That's some real synergy.

 

[Beaver79]

America - 8
Arabia - 20
Assyria - 20
Austria - 18
Aztec - 20
Babylon - 12
Brazil - 16
Byzantium - 18
Carthage - 20
Celts -22
China - 22
Danes - 24
Dutch - 20
Egypt - 16
England - 20
Ethiopia - 20
France - 20
Germany - 22
Greece - 20
Huns - 20
Inca - 20
India - 20
Indonesia - 20
Iroquois - 20
Japan - 20
Korea - 20
Maya - 20
Mongols - 22
Morocco - 20
Ottoman - 20
Persia - 20
Poland - 20
Polynesia - 20
Portugal - 22
Rome - 20
Russia - 20
Shoshone - 20
Siam - 22
Songhai - 16
Spain - 20
Sweden - 20
Venice - 22
Zulu - 20

-4 to Byzantium.

...

Why would anyone upvote this? How is giving a medieval nation TWO units in unfitting eras good design? Dromon doesn't fit ancient era at all. Cataphract doesn't fit early classical at all.

How is giving a civ everything so early in the game a good design? Ancient Era UU, early classical UU while you need to focus on faith at the same time if you don't want your UA to be completely useless. That's badly designed to put all eggs in one (ancient/classical) basket, because so early on you're unable to use everything.

As Byzantium it's pretty much a choice between two UU's that, despite being early, give no promotions on upgrade (not sure on Dromon?), or actually having an UA. That's the only nation that does such a stupid thing. The UA requires your attention and putting actual effort unlike most others, which would perhaps be a good design thing, but because of those two UU's you have at the same time that completely don't fit anything else in the civ... Hell no.

Not to mention the fact that Byzantium and Ancient Greece have UU's in the same eras. That really shouldn't have happened.


+2 to Venice. It's fun to play from time to time, and very unique. I like this out of the box approach, as it's completely different to most other civilizations. Did I mention it's fun? Yeah, I did.

It maybe has some flaws (looking at all those unclaimed lands, having to wait until the enemy actually settles something worthwhile, requires patience when looking at bad AI not settling perfect spots and instead taking bad tundras), but I'd really love to see Venice again in Civ6.

Could you please whine about the Byzantines in that other thread? They are a mid tier civ in terms of overall power and 3 religions certainly make the civ interesting to play.

 

[Enrico Swagolo]

Could you please whine about the Byzantines in that other thread? They are a mid tier civ in terms of overall power and 3 religions certainly make the civ interesting to play.

But I'm not complaining about strength, but the design.

I'm really interested to know how putting both UU's of a civ in completely unfitting eras while having every element of the civ clashing with each other without any synergy to be seen anywhere a good design.


So... Could you please explain it to me? Like to a child, if you really must. I really want to find out what - in your opinion - is good design.

 

[redwings1340]

Yeah, I kind of agree with Enrico here about poor Byzantium design. Their UA is an awesome one (flexible and powerful with a good unifying theme), but their UUs don't do anything to help out their UA. The UUs just seem very random to me, historical inaccuracy aside. If this were just a UA design thread (I'm never doing that, don't worry), then I would put Byzantium up there, because getting a better religion is a cool concept, but the execution fails pretty badly with two UUs that are unusable, bad, and unhelpful. The uniqueness of the UA would make it not my first choice to be eliminated, but well designed civs have more than just a unique UA, and Byzantium really doesn't.

Still, this is an elimination thread. All votes here are valid, and Enrico justified his pretty well. If you disagree, feel free to vote the other way next time. That's what these threads are about!

 

[Talcove]

America - 4
Arabia - 20
Assyria - 20
Austria - 18
Aztec - 20
Babylon - 12
Brazil - 16
Byzantium - 18
Carthage - 20
Celts -22
China - 22
Danes - 24
Dutch - 20
Egypt - 16
England - 20
Ethiopia - 20
France - 20
Germany - 22
Greece - 20
Huns - 20
Inca - 20
India - 20
Indonesia - 20
Iroquois - 20
Japan - 20
Korea - 20
Maya - 20
Mongols - 22
Morocco - 20
Ottoman - 20
Persia - 20
Poland - 20
Polynesia - 20
Portugal - 24
Rome - 20
Russia - 20
Shoshone - 20
Siam - 22
Songhai - 16
Spain - 20
Sweden - 20
Venice - 22
Zulu - 20

AMERICA
This civ is just the embodiment of vanilla. They have a boring UA, which, when it isn't useless, is extremely situational. The entire civ is boring to play as, especially with one UU coming so late in the game. Yes, they have one decent UU (The Minuteman), but that cannot make up for the rest of the civ's faults.

PORTUGAL
When you're playing as Portugal, you really feel as if you're playing as Portugal. The UA, the UU, and the UB all flow seamlessly together to create an immersive experience unique to this civ. Playing on any map, picking and choosing your trade routes, sending out a fleet of Naus to search for new treasures, and building Feitoras in city-states for their luxuries, truly feels like you're playing as a sprawling trade and exploration empire. The music is fantastic, and the colours are delightful. In addition to the immersion, there is the usefulness of it all. The UA helps you build up your treasury (Which, really, is useful for everything). The UU is the first major naval exploration unit, and it's unique portion encourages you to go big, or go home - the further out you explore, the more gold you get for selling your exotic goods. The UB is the icing on the cake. With this beast, you can effectively get most if not all city-state luxury resources without having to be their ally or friend, allowing you not only to expand like crazy, but also to sell off all of the luxuries you have in your own lands. Portugal truly is the epitome of trade Civilizations.

P.S. Looks like America isn't going to last for very long.

 

[cpm4001]

America - 4
Arabia - 20
Assyria - 20
Austria - 18
Aztec - 20
Babylon - 12
Brazil - 16
Byzantium - 18
Carthage - 20
Celts -22
China - 22
Danes - 24
Dutch - 20 + 2 = 22 - Everything about the Dutch synergizes really well around one thing: Gold. The UA, though weaker now that you need a DoF to trade lump sums of Gold, is still powerful, while the UI lets you build big cities with lots of specialists. And then the UU means if the AIs are cooperating by trading, you can always steal that Gold...
Egypt - 16
England - 20
Ethiopia - 20
France - 20
Germany - 22
Greece - 20
Huns - 20
Inca - 20
India - 20
Indonesia - 20
Iroquois - 20
Japan - 20
Korea - 20
Maya - 20
Mongols - 22
Morocco - 20
Ottoman - 20
Persia - 20
Poland - 20
Polynesia - 20
Portugal - 22
Rome - 20
Russia - 20 - 4 = 16 - Meh, Russia really stinks. The UA is strong enough, but their UU and UB don't synergize for anything.
Shoshone - 20
Siam - 22
Songhai - 16
Spain - 20
Sweden - 20
Venice - 24
Zulu - 20