Best Research order for Balance

[greynite1]

Hey there folks

never posted a thread of my own but i have several questions because unfortunately I keep getting my butt kicked by the CPU in numerous ways. My primary problem is this.

My primary goal is Research and conquering through a combination of having the best culture and most advanced military. My Problem is this. In the early times I am always trying to do expand enough to make space for my fledgling empire. Then to have enough cities on terrain which produces enough shields to create all the wonders and improvements I need. This could be because my early game sucks. What usually ends up happening are the following scenarios

1. I out expand and out research my neighbors but as a result of gettng my culture up my military suffers and since the computer can smell blood they declare war on me as soon as they are able. what happens then is I have to switch my production over to military units to defend myself and push the attackers over the borders and then the rest of the AIs can also smell blood declare war on my already in trouble empire. so I am ahead technologically and land wise but I can't defend it.

2. I go the military route and build my military up massively. Then nobody messes with me but I fall behind massively on upkeep of the units. then i get out cultured and out wondered by my opponents who sometimes get 30-40 turns ahead of me in research. then I'm stuck I can rarely if ever catch up at that point enough to get the wonders I need. One time I had a huge advantage in research over the computer and I was doing good then suddenly other civs I hadn't even contacted yet were beating me to the wonders in the middle ages. I had no significant enemies on my continent but I was so far behind in research it wasn't worth the effort.

So thats what I'm trying to figure out some early game Build orders and Research orders just to get me started. thanks for all your assistance. thanks.

 

[Shabbaman]

What level do you play?

 

[Scyphax]

Here is a stategy I use.

1) Explore - find nearby resources, contact other civs for trade and hopefully get a least 1 tech out of a goodie hut
2) Grow - have at least 1 city with bonus food resources an a grainary that alternates settler production with something else (I usually get it to produce military units.
Place some cities on lakes or rivers so that they can grow past 6 without an aquaduct (build grainaries here also)
3) Maximise city production - get out of despotism and improve the best tiles.
4) Keep the people happy - either 2 lux or a lux and temple in early stages
5) If going for a culture win build the Oracle.
6) If isolated on an island or small contient with one or zero other civs make contact as sson as possible

With this in mind I research techs in the following order:
1) Pottery
2) Monarchy or Republic (I go for Monarchy if going for a culture win (Oracle and Temple) or planning an early war (Warrrior code and upkeep of 3 units) - Republic otherwise)
3) Any techs that give me a UU or Horsemanship if I think there will be an early war
4) Map making if I am isolated
5) Literature and Currency in any order

Don't worry about the order you trade techs just get what you can. Unless on an isolated island you should be able to get more techs thru trade than reseaching them

When going onto the next age I usually head for Education if I don't have the Great Lib. and then Democracy.
Or Military tradition if I have the GL.
I will only reseach Chivilary if I feel a war is about to start.
Everything else in that age is Icing on the Cake, nice to have but not important.

 

[wilbill]

Originally posted by greynite1
1. I out expand and out research my neighbors but as a result of gettng my culture up my military suffers and since the computer can smell blood they declare war on me as soon as they are able. what happens then is I have to switch my production over to military units to defend myself and push the attackers over the borders and then the rest of the AIs can also smell blood declare war on my already in trouble empire. so I am ahead technologically and land wise but I can't defend it.

2. I go the military route and build my military up massively. Then nobody messes with me but I fall behind massively on upkeep of the units. then i get out cultured and out wondered by my opponents who sometimes get 30-40 turns ahead of me in research....

Knowing what level you play would help, but it sounds like you're actually over-expanding too early in the game. At some point you have to take a brief rest from building settlers and let your existing cities catch up. You have to have enough military units to defend yourself or the AI's do smell blood.
Also, how much do you trade with the AI's? The best (and sometimes only) way to keep up with the AI in techs is to trade (Monarch and above). Trading for luxuries to keep your people happy is cheaper than using the luxury slider.

 

[greynite1]

I generally play on king to Emperor Level so yeah I know I'm going a hard route. with every citizen born unhappy I have to really be careful of keeping my people happy cause every turn a city goes unproductive is another turn I'm behind the AI. yeah one of my primary strategies is to just go bonkers settling and I try and grab for every Strategic (especially) and Luxury resource I can. I really do cause I need to keep my people happy. Then I can also trade them to the AI for stuff. Its too bad the AI doesn't value those things as important as they are. From soem of the articles I have read it seems like researching is just a function of commerce unfortunately thats all in the way I improve the tiles and optimum city placement and preparation with workers. The thing that trips me up sometimes is workers cost pop points too which throws off my settler manufacturing.

I generally play as the Americans so i start off with pottery if I can I trade one of my starting advances for Warrior code and Research bronzeworking cause nobody starts out with that. I find that the best and first wonder I need to go for is the colossus. Then I make an all out dash for either the Pyramids and then the GReat Library cause if I can get THAT Item. Then i can take a research break. Thus focusing on consolidating my position.

another question I had was What is a normal or safe amount of starting Cities not including your capital. How many should I be going for?? as to not over extend myself. At the rate I'm going I'm just trying to master the early game cause I'm not getting past Ancient Times.

thanks for your great suggestions so far.

 

[Trev]

I expand with cities constantly until all space between me and other civs is filled up, but while doing so build enough armies to explore in all directions and deter enemy attack (about 3 per city).

Generally build a temple or library as well in each city to expand its cultural radius.

After initial expansion phase then concentrate on strong culture and city development, generally buying techs and culture and commerce improvements by running high tax rate

 

[Renata]

There's no way to avoid the first problem you listed except to build more military. I haven't found it difficult to keep the AI off my back on the lower levels; 1-2 units per city is plenty as long as you're still expanding. (Once that's done, though, build some offence!) Just be willing to give in to the occasional tribute demand, and put the tougher defenders on the AIs border.

As for keeping up with tech ... even on lower levels (well, not Chieftain , trade is vital if you happen to be playing on larger Pangaea type maps. Remember that with the AI's trading bonuses, the same turn one of them gets a tech, most of the rest will have it too. Their cumulative pace will be more than you can hope to keep up with, especially if you get a cruddy riverless start. The only way to keep your head above water is to trade. Turn your research to minimum and rake in the cash. Check diplomacy often to see who has what. Every so often (and you may be 3 or 4 techs behind at the time!) you'll notice that, say, China and Persia have Currency, but no one else does. You shell out 350 gold to one of them to get Currency, then sell it to all the other civs for the other 2 or 3 techs you're missing. Voila, you're current in tech. Lather rinse repeat.

At least that's the theory ....

Renata

 

[danwhit]

To your question of when should you stop expanding: I usually build an initial ring around my palace of as many cities as I can, usually around 5 unless on coast/peninsula.
Right after building first city, you should determine prime settler producing locations and build cities there. Irrigate cows instead of mining. Early cities(first 4) are either settler producer city or military producer city(which builds a barracks very early).
Don't think of your problem as which should I do expand or build military. The answer is both in a balanced manner. I believe that is the fun part of the early game, finding the balance for your particular situation.

Also, its ok if they declare war. Let them come to you though don't go after them until your ready. Usually early on they'll send all their worthless warriors, which is fine for building elite units for you and possibly a very early leader(which is a godsend).

About the techs you should research. First of all Scientific civs start with Bronzeworking(contrary to what you said). I usually go: Pot, CB(depending on level of diff), BW, IW. If no, Iron then Wheel, Horse, Alpha, Writing, Lit, Myst, Poly, Monarchy and then towards currency(that seems like the last one the ai goes after, and I try to beat the other late techs out of the AI). I disagree with going for Monarchy before Lit because it seems like Poly and Monarchy(25 turns on 90%science) take forever without libraries. Also getting Great Library early and shutting off science for about 1000 years is pretty cool too(after I get Monarchy).

 

[heikeott]

Hi!

Your troubles sound awfully familiar to me, even though I play at lower levels than you. I have been reading and learning here for weeks, but still much of what I read goes over my head. Still, I have advanced a level and greatly improved my play by making a few changes to my own games using simplified strategy tips from various forums, threads, and the War Academy. Perhaps my distilled tips will be of some help to you, as these are the things that have helped me the most, and some of them are things that were so obvious to everyone that they often didn't think to tell them to me ...

1) Grabbing "good" locations for cities is not as important as I thought. I used to send my settlers all over the map to grab the best city sites, only to find myself without good contiguous borders to defend, or to discover that others beat me to my selected sites before I could get a settler out there. So now I build my cities pretty close together (not OCP or ICS, but rarely leave more than 1 tile gap between cities unless desert or mountains). I also expand towards the AI civs first and worry about my " back yard" later. Yes, they will try to fill in spaces but I can usually manage to keep them away long enough to grab any sites that I really want, IF they have to go through my territory to get there. Sometimes you will actually have to place warriors or some cheap unit to fortify on tiles that you don't really want (especially points that stick out into the ocean) to keep the AI from plunking settlers there and stealing part of your territory. Leave no neutral tile unoccupied unless you don't care if an AI city gets put there!! After your borders expand to cover those tiles, then you can go back and move the units.

2) Never, ever trade your World Map for anything before you have all the territory you want secured, or when you have discovered new land that they theoreticially don't know about yet. Yes, they actually have the whole map from the beginning, but like the card shark with the ace up his sleeve they try to pretend they are not cheating. They may nonchalantly mosey towards that island you discovered while pretending they don't know it's there, but if you let them have your WM they will make a beeline for it with enough settlers to take the whole thing.

2) Going for the Great Library is a good strategy and I usually do that, but I also trade tech. I don't try to be a Pope, but in the early game I try to trade around for all the beginning techs, and then I often take the research line that the AI usually ignores (mathematics/currency or medicine/sanitation for example) so that I will have something to trade. Maybe I could beat them to the militaristic techs by a few turns, but I will hardly have time to build many superior units in those turns, and if I don't already have the resources like rubber and oil in my territory I will have to trade or fight for them anyway. Iron is the only one I can sometimes still run and "grab" if I see it first. (Of course we all know that the AI knows where the resources will appear, and that is why their odd little town in the middle of tundra or desert.) I'm not always first to Scientific Method, but around Magnetism or before I am developing a city for max. shield production that is pre-building a palace for as long as possible, and that city WILL build Theory of Evolution. After that I am 1 - 2 techs ahead and change my commerce allocations to try to stay that way. I have also learned to make sure that I have just finished researching a tech before I complete ToE so that I don't only save a few turns of research on the first tech it gives me. Then later in the game I sell everybody a tech every time I get more than 2 ahead, and I am RAKING in the cash for the rest of the game and they stay at least polite to me! The more they pay - and sometimes I'm getting over 600 gold per turn (cumulatively) for techs that are 2 behind what I'm researching - the further behind they fall in research, and the more fun I have spending their money. Who needs war?

3) The AI civs are almost like children, or clingy wives during football season. It's kind of a pain, but if you just talk to them nearly every turn they will stay much happier and less likely to attack you. If the territory you know about is all pretty much settled, trade maps every turn, or let them buy your map for a couple of gold or whatever. It's silly, but it keeps them happy. If you are sure that someone is about to attack (units massing on your borders, etc.) and you don't want the war, try to negotiate a Right of Passage, and pay whatever you have to. If they take the RoP they will not (with very rare exceptions) attack you while the RoP is in force. In the meantime you can build up military and will be able to cancel the RoP and schedule the war at YOUR convenience.

4) The AI counts NUMBERS of units, not strength (up to 1.21g patch, not sure about 1.29). If you don't really want to have a war but you want to appear strong enough to keep them from bullying you, build a bunch of cheap units quick, like warriors or whatever (maybe pick something that can be upgraded if you can). I think even workers count! When deciding whether to declare war or not, the AI doesn't seem to care that your warriors can't really stand up to their knights or whatever, it just counts how many 'military' units you have.

5) Most of the AI civs don't seem to worry about culture until they've run out of other things to worry about. If you build just a temple in each of your cities early you'll usually be okay, and then later you build libraries and universities anyway to increase your research rate and you're in good shape culturally. Early temples are good for expanding borders though; I like to be a religious civ so that I can build temples cheap.

6) Grab all the luxuries you can, even if you have to put a city in a weird place and expend lots of effort to get a road to it, or trade for the luxuries. Having 5 or more of the different luxuries - and a marketplace in each city - makes everything else so much easier!

7) After the essentials are taken care of, build a barracks in every city. Only cities with barracks can upgrade units, and shuffling them around to upgrade them gets to be a real pain later on. And if you are going to do any warmongering at all, you will want to upgrade. Using AI gold that they are paying me every turn for old tech to upgrade my military units to be better than theirs is almost as much fun as sending tanks out to beat up on spearmen! (umm, actually, it's more fun - funny thing about those spearmen.. - but never mind you'll hear plenty about that)

HTH!

 

[poprawkz]

Play on a lower level to sharpen your skills. Then move back up to the higher difficulties. It sounds to me like you are trying to run before you can walk.

 

[Hellfire]

A simple solution would be to have for every city that is building a settler, have another city that is building spearmen/defensive units.

On Emperor or Deity you might want to make it 2 defensive units, especially as you get near other civs. This is usually what I do, get about 4-5 cities going. My Capital is on wonder building, and two cities with settlers and 2 with barracks pumping out spearmen.

 

[greynite1]

WOW !!

Got some really great replies here. Lots to work with. Hmmm because eventually yes I would like to go to war with all superior units. Its just kinda funny how the AI cheats like a Enron Executive.


I found some other interesting changes I just got the PTW expansion and Medievel Infantry is very interesting its like a slower version of knights and for some reason it just kicks ass on the defense.

This has given me lots to work with and I appreciate all the help. Just out of curiosity does anybody know for sure how the computer figures out if an enemy outnumbers you?? does it count both settlers and Workers??