Best way to deal with an early Loki on deity difficulty?

[Horatius]

I was wondering if you guys have any tips on how to deal with an early Loki when the Balseraphs spawn next to you on deity difficulty.

I typically just declare war to prevent Loki from stealing my new founded city but on this level of difficulty unless someone is also on war with the Balseraphs the game tends to become too much of a grind (if not an instant loss) if there is a war too early and they are close to you.

I'm usually okay with losing my heroes at 98% odds or so but Loki really freaks me out; and if I try to talk with Perpentach just to read the message "Fear my freak!" I freak even more!

Thanks.

 

[xalien]

You could try killing him with a HN unit while he's in a city where he can't withdraw. Captured bear or spider should do the trick.

 

[Horatius]

That is well and good further on in the game.
The problem is when he quickly shows up to take your second city before it has a monument.

 

[xalien]

Animal Husbandry is not "well and good further on in the game", it could easily be the first tech you research. Farm barbs and animals until one of the scouts gets 5 xp (less if you're aggressive and/or charismatic) and go capture. Although if you can capture bears Loki is no longer a problem anyway.

 

[Horatius]

Sorry, I wasn't thinking of using scouts to capture animals early on. That's also because I tend to give priority to warrior defense on deity obviously, but also because the AI scouts are very active in capturing the surrounding animals (if not giving more combat promotions to them...).
Also if I don't have a cow or something I'm reluctant to go animal husbandry.
But I'll give that a try and see how it works.
Thanks.

 

[Breunor]

No question, Loki is tough early. I don't have any super tricks, the AI is good at using him now to capture cities; and I'm guessing on deity they get him built pretty fast. Either you have to go to war with the Balseraphs or you pretty much can't build cities until you can build the first level priests to make a great work (and build the monument while Loki tries to whittle down your culture).

Best wishes,

Breunor

 

[Azhral]

The Pact of the Nilhorn isn't too hard for the player to grab, if one tries. Larry, Curly and Moe all start with HN, and are pretty damn tough after a few promos. If Loki is being a pain, grab Cartography (I suppose on Diety you'd go for it pretty soon to keep costs down anyways, I usually ignore it myself on Monarch).

 

[hzf]

This is goig to sound arrogant/elitist or some such but: People suggesting getting a hidden nationality unit to take him out have not faced Loki on Deity.

On deity, I usually just start a new game if the Balseraphs are present. Even if Loki does not come your way he will instead take over many cities from the other AI players and ruin the game that way. You can end up with a balseraph having 6 cities by turn 40 or so, and on deity the AI pays very little in maintainence.

OK, to try to answer the original question...

One way is, when you see the balseraphs nearby, build your second city towards them an on a hill. Then declare on them one turn before Loki takes the city. Put at least 3 warriors in that city on hope that you can get archery and half a dozen archers out before the huge stack of Freaks arrive.

Another way is to wait for Message from the Depths. Send two Zealots with your settler, use one to spread the religion and the other to create great work (20 culture). Obviously, this delays your second city greatly. If you have some forested plains hills, you might skip mining and go for an early great prohpet to bulb the tech though. On rare occasions you might even found the religion.

Obviously, if you play as a creative leader and found your city at the right time you should be okay. You still want to start with a monument though.

Better options include using the world builder tool to kill Loki, or making your own version of the game without Loki's disrupt ability

My last attempt at deity on pangea I was van Gosam and had four neighbours: Keelyn, Jonas, Auric Cassiel. Sometimes this game just hates me! (I lost horribly)

 

[Horatius]

This is goig to sound arrogant/elitist or some such but: People suggesting getting a hidden nationality unit to take him out have not faced Loki on Deity.

I understand why you say this but I still appreciate any suggestions.

A civ like the Svartalfar that starts with agriculture and uses sinister scouts can try the hidden nationality animals approach. It's also okay to trade some scouts for warriors in earlier production with them. The Hippus also starts with agriculture and will want to go through animal husbandry to get horseback riding.Trading scouts for warriors with them, though, it's more dangerous. There's also no guarantee that you can get an animal with the scouts and that you can get an animal on diety in good time to deal with loki and grab some land.

Unfortunately, getting the pact on diety is simply too hard. Even if you do get it, you will only pump out your first settler, what, turn 100? You will be boxed in a pangea map.

On deity, I usually just start a new game if the Balseraphs are present.

Don't do it, man, don't do it! Fight!

Even if Loki does not come your way he will instead take over many cities from the other AI players and ruin the game that way. You can end up with a balseraph having 6 cities by turn 40 or so, and on deity the AI pays very little in maintainence.

Six cities by turn 40 can be a little bit too fast; with that being said, in my last diety game with them the freaks actually managed to box in two civilizations that got stuck with only their capitals for the rest of the game. They tried to do the same thing to me but I declared war and fought them with the Lanun (one needs help...) and eventually won the game.

OK, to try to answer the original question...

One way is, when you see the balseraphs nearby, build your second city towards them an on a hill. Then declare on them one turn before Loki takes the city. Put at least 3 warriors in that city on hope that you can get archery and half a dozen archers out before the huge stack of Freaks arrive.

This seems like the standard approach.

Another way is to wait for Message from the Depths. Send two Zealots with your settler, use one to spread the religion and the other to create great work (20 culture). Obviously, this delays your second city greatly. If you have some forested plains hills, you might skip mining and go for an early great prohpet to bulb the tech though. On rare occasions you might even found the religion.

Yep, but I will only tech to fishing If I can use a fishing resource effectively. I will never self tech anything on deity that I can't use effectively. The delay for the second city is a problem also.
Culture booming is definitely the approach that I tend to use for later cities, though.

Better options include using the world builder tool to kill Loki, or making your own version of the game without Loki's disrupt ability

Never!
I'll beat the game as it is.

My last attempt at deity on pangea I was van Gosam and had four neighbours: Keelyn, Jonas, Auric Cassiel. Sometimes this game just hates me! (I lost horribly)

At least the Hippus were not invited to the party

Thanks!

 

[Azhral]

Sounds like a hard game, but as Varn Gosam you shouldn't have had much trouble. He starts with Creative to ward off Loki, and I usually rush Code of Laws to get the Aristograrianism going strong (plus Calendar for incense and civic). Then head to a tech to get some better units. I usually head for Bronze Working (not many hills in the desert, need as much production as possible) and then for a religion (usually Empy).

Still, if you're playing on Deity, don't expect it to be easy.

 

[hzf]

Yeah Creative helps hugely here. But you still need to make sure Loki is not too close when you found a city.

I still dont think Subdue Animal is the answer. It is an expensive early tech and you would need to catch at least 2 bears/spiders/scorpions, and then catch Loki sat in a city without too many warriors in it.

 

[Jarrema]

I managed to kill Loki with animals on immortal, when playing Svarts. Not sure if it can be done reliably on deity

 

[hzf]

I started a Standard Deity Pangea a few hours ago. I am playing as Tebryn (sp?). Archeron and mercurians/infernals disabled.

I had Cassiel to my east, Perpentach to my north and Dain to my west. Further west are Decius of Bannor (who spawned Koun), Auric and Ethne.

By turn 40 Perpentach had 5 cities. He founded 3 himself and took 2 from Cassiel. After the AI expansion I could found a forward city and then get a third city on the coast a little later. As I founded my forward city, Loki was 4 squares away waiting. I had to declare war on Perpentach within 2 turns of buidling the city.

If I had started making scouts on turn one, I could of had a total of 1 warrior, 4 scouts and 1 settler when I was ready to expand. I could of had animal husbandry instead of mysticism (I teched Agri > myst), but that would of obviously weakened my resarch greatly. I would of surely lost at least 2 scouts while trying to get one to level 3, leaving me a very weak set of units to deal with the barbs. After researching AH I would of had maybe a 5 turn window to capture an animal and intercept Loki as he took a Grigori city. I just dont think that is feasible.

Intsead, I went the Pyre Zombie route. Prepentach used Loki to massivly expand. I took all his cities with zombies and have around 20 cities at turn 200. Ofcourse, that would not be possible with regular axemen.

 

[hzf]

My above post was sliughtly incorrect: Minister Koun was Illian!

This is the first time I have ever experienced a 40 turn Stasis

 

[Horatius]

If I had started making scouts on turn one, I could of had a total of 1 warrior, 4 scouts and 1 settler when I was ready to expand. I could of had animal husbandry instead of mysticism (I teched Agri > myst), but that would of obviously weakened my resarch greatly. I would of surely lost at least 2 scouts while trying to get one to level 3, leaving me a very weak set of units to deal with the barbs. After researching AH I would of had maybe a 5 turn window to capture an animal and intercept Loki as he took a Grigori city. I just dont think that is feasible.

That's why I was suggesting that maybe only the civs that start with agriculture can consider going animal husbandry straightaway. Getting both agriculture and animal husbandry takes a lot of turns at the beginning. One needs to generate commerce and get some warriors.

Yeah, it's probably too tricky in this difficulty.

It seems that there is not a straightforward solution for this and that clown will always find a reason to laugh at us.

In my last diety game as the Elohim I spotted the freaks straight away at turn one. I decided to go mysticism to try to get Runes going straight to mining afterwards to take advantage of the gold next to me.
Got the holy city and got ready to culture boom my new second city with the disciple. He wasn't needed as the clown was stealing cities from the Sidar. A few turns later I settled my third city and the freak sniffed it out. I used my disciple to culture boom that city and loki simply casted entertain.

He stayed there forever, though. I couldn't do anything about it because the Lanun declared on me and I got busy with them. But after conquering some juicy pirate ports everything started to go well.

So, quick Runes helped in this game getting me a disciple to culture boom. I didn't delay my settlers much actually and a second gold in my second city helped my early economy. It worked ok.

With that being said, I'm still not sure what I'm going to do next time against the early clown.

 

[hzf]

Yeah religion is the only non-war option that I can think of.

I dont usually play on deity as I have only ever won with the lanun on this setting, but this thread may of just inspired me to my first Sheiam deity victory I am not done yet, but the major power left is Dain and Dain is never scary

 

[Breunor]

I pretty much agree with evryone here - if you have time to get a religion, my usual technique is to use a disciple to get the 20 culture, which gives me enough time to get a monument; or I can use a second disciple for culture from the religion (harder with ROK). Or you can be creative. Or you can just fight.

Some of it depends on how quickly Loki gets out.

Perhaps just as big a problem as Loki stealing your cities, though, is Loki stealing the AI cities, and the Balseraphs become the runaway civ. Even on Emperor and Immirtal, I've run into trouble with the Balseraphs being just overwhelming; on deity, I usually find it just too tough.

Best wishes,

Breunor

 

[hzf]

Yep, agreed.

I won the game with Tebryn after taking all of Perpentach's many cities with pyre zombies.

I just started a game as Beeri. Keelyn was to my immediate south. I had a strong commerce capital but after making a mud golem I did not even bother to make a settler. The AI expansion had me surrounded. Keelyn had Hexam about 5 tiles south of my capital and Hexam founded AV very very early (turn 70ish). I had thought she got a Savant from a lair. I moved out with barnaxxus, 3 wood golems and 3 warriors as soon as I had them. I took Hexam. Keelyn's small counter force got me Ortus's axe.

Unfortunately, as I moved down to Jubilee with several more wood golems in my army, I realised that Keelyn actually did have Corruption of Spirit (by turn 100). Rossier and 2 diseased corpses were in the city along with 2 freaks and a warrior. I resigned. There is no way I could get cities without fighting Keelyn, and there is no way I could win with Wood Golems vs Diseased Corpses.

 

[Horatius]

Yep, agreed.

I won the game with Tebryn after taking all of Perpentach's many cities with pyre zombies.

Congratulations on your win on diety. It is possible to win with every civilization, though, not just with the Lanun or Sheaim (the pyre zombies are nice, yes?).

I just started a game as Beeri. Keelyn was to my immediate south. I had a strong commerce capital but after making a mud golem I did not even bother to make a settler.

I would make a settler before a mud golem. Unless I spawn at the middle of the map I try to set up my capital and second city in such a way that guarantees me at the very least two more small cities.
If you are guaranteed to get stuck with only two cities (you have to realize this early enough) then go godking fast and spam warriors like there's no tomorrow to try to catch a couple of sub-defended cities while an AI is in a heavy expansion phase. You will not be able to kill that AI (and you should not try to), the idea is to cripple it fast so that you have some chance.
It's still a very tough game, but you should do what increases your odds of winning. I think that you should think in percentages in the diety early game if there's a lot of contact, but maybe that's just me.

Example: just started a game with Amel and spawned very close to the doviello. A while after I got a second city he declared on me. I was ready for this and had a bunch of warriors ready. A huge stack of beastmen and wolves came towards my capital but they did not have enough to crack it even though I wasn't on a hill. Slowly but surely, with the help of the homeland promotion and a lot of sacrificial warriors, I crushed that stack attacking from my city and got about six well promoted warriors. Lucian and drowns came towards me next and I hammered them fast to get Orthus' axe. A little while after I conquered three of their cities and raized two more with just warriors (five cities from me was enough at that point to maintain and defend, and of course I went cartography with the pillage money (it helped that Amel has the raiders trait)). The Doviello got stuck with only their well defended capital, and no copper. I'm trying now to get some commerce going while way behind other civs but I have a decent game.

I once won a deity game with the Svartalfar after being stuck in one city for 250 turns. I would typically resign but sometimes being stubborn and betting on the AI stupidity can work (eventually I had to get the Armageddon count to 100 so that Decius' hundreds of units would perish while my Stygian guards did the cleanup (all of the freaking horsemen and the avatar did spawn next to me, though, crushing several of my cities in the late game)).
It was a fun game.
There isn't always a clear solution but some critical decisions can increase your odds of winning.

 

[Horatius]

I pretty much agree with evryone here - if you have time to get a religion, my usual technique is to use a disciple to get the 20 culture, which gives me enough time to get a monument; or I can use a second disciple for culture from the religion (harder with ROK). Or you can be creative. Or you can just fight.

Some of it depends on how quickly Loki gets out.

Perhaps just as big a problem as Loki stealing your cities, though, is Loki stealing the AI cities, and the Balseraphs become the runaway civ. Even on Emperor and Immirtal, I've run into trouble with the Balseraphs being just overwhelming; on deity, I usually find it just too tough.

Best wishes,

Breunor

Loki can be built on deity even before turn 20...

The thing is, you can try to get a religion early if you start with ancient chants. Granted, most civs start with that, but not everyone is philosophical.

I would not go mysticism>crafting>mining straight away without some wine or gold.
If I'm running a priest to get the religion I'm not using an Elders Council to use a scientist to help with research.
To go fishing immediately, I need not only a coast start but also some fishing resources to be worthwhile (well, if you are financial, it's not that bad even without fishing resources).

So, it depends on the leader and the land.
It definitely seems a situational solution.
(I definitely did not expect a general solution...)


I must say that on Emperor I never had much difficulty with them, and even on immortal if Loki comes my way I just declare war on them and give the middle finger to the AI.
I usually find that Loki's little games usually encourage the other civs to declare war on them more easily anyway. It is true that in some games they become overwhelming but I wouldn't say that that is typical and I'm more afraid of a big Bannor than them.

On diety, I don't like to get into a early war with them because they build freaks so fast. The freaks have, well, all of those freak promotions that makes them thougher than warriors.

With the Svartalfar, I'm still not disinclined in trying to get an animal in time. The thing is, you don't have to try to nail loki in someone else's city. That could also require cartography (there is no guarantee that you'll have Open borders with an AI that is more inclined to godking early on).

Loki casts a puppet pretty much every time he's not in a city. What happens is that he will typically cast a puppet before entering a city and only in the following turn he will disrupt it. Which means that you should have a specific turn to kill him in your city.
I say should, because I still have to try it.