Best way to play Mayans?

[rawrtrav]

Okay so I'm trying to make my way through all of the Civs which people consider to be the more powerful ones, so I can make my own decision up on which is the best.

I've played Babylon, first time playing them and I manged to get a t303 SV, which I thought was decent (Standard, Continents, King), I tried Brazil out, got a t326 CV, so that took a bit longer but I had no idea what I was doing until half way through, I've tried Korea, and whilst they aren't quite as powerful as Babylon in my opinion, they are still solid, although I haven't yet finished that game.

Then I've moved onto trying the Mayans, and I just can't get my head around how they're supposed to have any real benefit above other Civs.

Playing on a small continents map (Didn't realise how small these continents were until I started it up, they're practically the same size as the 'Large Islands' map...) on King difficulty because I'm a bit of a wuss and don't feel good enough to go higher yet (Otherwise I wouldn't be posting here I guess). I got put in a decent starting location on the coast with a silk, a marble and a silver all nearby. I got a few tiles of grassland, and was also on a river with 2 tiles of farm-able river and a couple of hills, but for the most part it was just flat plains.

I went for a tall strategy, so started off tech wise going Pottery > Calender > Writing > Mining > Philosophy > Masonry > Animal Husbandry > Archery > The Wheel > The one that gives Hanging Gardens > The tech that gives Parthenon > Theology.
Tradition is obviously a no-brainer, and building wise in Palenque things went a bit like Monument > Pyramid (Mayan one of course) > Stonehenge > Library > NC > Settler > Granary > Hanging Gardens.

I reached the NC by turn 71, settled my second city by turn 73, third city a little bit later. I'd also got a religion set up by this point with food being the main focus (10% from Pantheon, 15% from follower). However, I reached Theology by turn 100, so I don't think I was that far behind here. I got my first great person before 0AD hit, spent it on a Scientist and plopped him on the one desert tile in the middle of all my plains for a nice +8 science boost.

After this, I don't understand what else you're supposed to do with the Mayans. I realised that it's not actually a 'bonus' great person, and that it in fact pushed your current great people back, so my next Great Scientist was now 200 points away. But still I carry on, going down a science-ish route. I get a second 'bonus' great person before I knew it and spent it on a Great Engineer, but had nothing that I wanted to rush at this point, so I kept him around for a while and took a detour to Notre Dame, cos why not eh, 10 free happiness equals 10 free pop. Anyway, I knew I got to Notre Dame before anyone else so built it without using the Engineer. While I was building Notre Dame, got my 3rd great person, and after using the 2 useful GPs, I made a decision to go for a Merchant because my 3rd city was still a fair distance away from building a uni, so I pop the Merch in a city state, buy a uni and all is well.

After Notre Dame, I build Oxford Uni, which allows me to get Printing Press 8 turns early, meaning I can go for Banking instead. I use the Engineer on Pisa, get another Engineer and pop him on Forbidden Palace.

But then after here, what on earth are you meant to do? You've used all the useful Great People, and you can't reuse them. Plus, they're not even bonus people, they're used in the exact same way as normal, meaning that in this game I couldn't get my first Great Person through actual points until I got 500 for a Great Scientist. Also, they're UU and UB go obsolete pretty quickly. The way I see it, if you're building atlatlists, something has gone wrong, and the UB, sure +2 faith is nice for founding a religion, and +2 Science is a good headstart, but when others start to catch up with you, there is nothing that the Mayans have to pull ahead, as far as I can tell.


That's where I want some help if possible, I want to know what people do with the Mayans and why so many people seem to think they're so good, because at the moment I just cannot see it. What strategies do people use, what is the standard tech path or building path? Any help is greatly appreciated.

 

[chazzycat]

I really loved Maya in G&K when faith/city spam was more viable. Now with the changes to wide empires, I think it's more about leveraging the early faith & science from the UB into something lasting. Even with only 4 cities, 8 faith and 8 science is a pretty nice bonus that early in the game. Managed properly (good pantheon, good tech order) it has the potential to snowball a bit.

I do agree about the great people kind messing up science strategies, it makes it hard to create as many GS. But keep in mind only merchants & engineers increase the counter for scientists. So you can avoid it to some extent by picking GM & GE last. Also, as the Mayans I like to focus on the free GP a bit more than usual. If the counters are already messed up, taking more free ones isn't hurting much. So focusing on porcelain tower, leaning tower, etc. is a good strategy IMO.

 

[joshua43214]

You might want to consider changing your opening BO to Pyramid, scouts, etc. Building a monument with tradition is questionable with most civs (not saying its bad), but probably bad with the Maya since the Pyramid is much more powerful. After that just do basically what you did do. try to time your first GS for right after you pop your first natural one. Since you will generally plant your first two and save the rest, this seems to make the most sense.

Also, you might want to re-examine your Korea game, I consider Korea to be the one of the most powerful, if not the most powerful, civs in the game. You really want an extremely tall capitol, and focus on getting specialist buildings and running all of them. It takes 53 pop to run every possible specialist and work the entire 3-ring, so make >>40 pop your target.

 

[Plumfairy]

Tradition is obviously a no-brainer, and building wise in Palenque things went a bit like Monument > Pyramid (Mayan one of course) > Stonehenge > Library > NC > Settler > Granary > Hanging Gardens.

I wouldn't say that Tradition is a no-brainer for the Maya. It's definitely a solid choice, but the Maya can also benefit from going Liberty. You can found 3-4 additional cities really early and use the pyramids to get to Theology quickly. (If you go this route your NC will be delayed by quite a bit)

After this, I don't understand what else you're supposed to do with the Mayans. I realised that it's not actually a 'bonus' great person, and that it in fact pushed your current great people back, so my next Great Scientist was now 200 points away.

One option is to use your first couple Long Count GP picks on not-so-good Great People & use specialists to get your first (and maybe second) scientist and/or engineer. Great Admirals, for example, are a surprisingly solid early-game GP choice with the Long Count; you're able to start exploring the world's oceans extremely early.

 

[rawrtrav]

Thanks for the replies. Yeah, I'd agree that 8 faith and 8 science is good early game, but by the time you're at a stage where you would have 4 cities all with pyramids, I think the bonus would be negligible, especially compared to the 5% science penalty per city, that adds up to what, 122% of normal science? Say by the point you have pyramids set up in all 4 cities, you're at about turn 110 (Which I think is generous unless you skip Stonehenge/Oracle), you should easily be at Classical period and about 250 beakers per tech. At 122%, that's 305 beakers, an extra 55 beakers. I dunno, just seems like it's not necessarily a boost and instead stays at a pretty constant level, which I suppose is better than most civs which at this point would take a hit from early expansion.

The problem I have with choosing GM/GE any later than I did is that GWAMs are useless at that point in the game, and when they do come in to play, they're pretty quick to get really. As for Porcelain and Pisa, I'd go for them in a normal game anyway but I'd be able to plan them around my other Great People better, so get a Great Scientist from points one turn then finish Porcelain the next turn. I suppose the Prophet could be useful in some situations, but seeing as you've already made it to Theology to be able to start spawning the GPs, I'd assume you already have a religion set up, and have possibly already enhanced, if not then are close to enhancing.


Honestly, I've never even thought of not building a monument first thing before, maybe that's where I've been going wrong haha. But the pyramid isn't available until 11 turns into the game or so, which is perfect for the monument which is normally 8 turns, leaving me 3 turns to start on a settler. Is this a bad way to start?


Korea were powerful, I got Seoul up to 38 pop at a relatively early point due to cargo ships. However, their UA only comes into play after a certain point where as Babylon is a gift that just keeps on giving. The way I see that is that you need 4 specialists for every GS that Babylon produces. If you need 53 pop to run every possible specialist, then that would mean there are 17 specialists, the equivalent of 4 GSs produced by Babylon. When I played as Babylon, by the industrial era I'd already placed 7 academies. Although actually, after just reading up on it, I've noticed that the Korean UA actually adds +2 to academies which I didn't know. Maybe it's time to restart Korea!


As for the early Admiral, I'd never even thought of that, basically you'd get a Polynesia style bonus, that's pretty good!

 

[Plumfairy]

Honestly, I've never even thought of not building a monument first thing before, maybe that's where I've been going wrong haha. But the pyramid isn't available until 11 turns into the game or so, which is perfect for the monument which is normally 8 turns, leaving me 3 turns to start on a settler. Is this a bad way to start?

Is this a Tradition or Liberty start? If it's Tradition, I usually build 2 scouts or 1 scout & 1 atlatl, the pyramids, granary, and then more atlatls until my city is size 4 or 5, at which point I build settlers. If it's Liberty, I build 1 scout, a monument, atlatls until I get Collective Rule, then 3 or 4 settlers in quick succession. (I might throw the Great Pyramids into my queue, depending on how many workers I've been able to steal)

As for the early Admiral, I'd never even thought of that, basically you'd get a Polynesia style bonus, that's pretty good!

Yup. Just make sure you always end your turn in deep water and the barbarians won't be able to reach you for a very long time. Also, note that if you pick the Great Admiral when you don't have a coastal city then your Admiral magically appears in the nearest ocean tile, so you can start exploring the world anyways.

 

[chazzycat]

definitely go for pyramid before monument. Like you said the +2 +2 bonuses aren't huge, so the only way to make them count is to get them as early as possible. Along that same line of thinking, you should be trying to crank out your first few cities very quickly as well, grab any nearby luxes ASAP. And production focus out the pyramid in each city first thing.

 

[Syailendra]

a monument start on small conts is the only way to go, imo, you don't need a scout and also have less chance of cultural ruins on this kind of map. The wrong part is stonehenge, you'll get a free Gprophet anyway, so stonehenge is a waste of hammers.
But you went too late for the long count bonus. The first 'free' GP should be spawned at turns 72. Some vets even aim for turns 62.
And you should get Gadm or Gprophets first as they won't increase the specialist GP counter, and early GS and GE shall be gained by using specialists.

 

[sendos]

My Mayan game in BNW involved piety and liberty. In order for the Maya to make good use of their UB, which in my opinion is the most important aspect of the Mayans, you need about 6-8 cities, focusing on faith. Grab a reformation too, between Glory of God, Jesuit Education and Sacred Sites, depending on your victory type. I made the mistake of getting religious fervour because I thought I would encounter deadly wars in the future, but mark my words: that reformation is horrible. 2200 faith for an infantry unit?! C'mon.

I also got the messenger god pantheon, so both the pantheon and the UB counteract the science penalty. I ended up generating about 150 faith per turn with 6 cities. But I did not spend a single bit of faith and I had nearly 20,000 faith stored away. Grabbing rationalism tree enabled me to purchase GS' and I eventually won an SV from massive bulbing by a knife's edge. This is on emperor difficulty.

The UA is designed to give the Mayans an early boost in the medieval era. I suggest getting it just before 0AD. You will get at least 6 free great people out of this UA and that is all. The ability becomes weaker over time, hence I tend to favour a rather wide Maya than a tall Maya to generate lots of faith and to use the UB the counteract the science penalty. Although, this plan becomes less effective over time. It's a matter of rapid expansion (6-8 cities) and then going tall.