Biggest Total Research/Beaker Science City?
- Thread starter Uncle E
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If you're lucky enough to get 18 grassland riverside corn and a 2-tile water inlet with 2 fish, it is possible to engineer over 1800 beakers in one city with Hannibal (or any other financial civ). Cottage all the grassland corn, giving you 7 commerce on 18 tiles, and plus 8 from the water tiles with the Colossus and 8 from the palace you have 178 raw commerce.
You can get as many as 7 trade routes if you're careful. You get:
1 to begin with
1 from Currency
2 from the Great Lighthouse
1 from Castles
1 from Free Market (via the UN)
1 from the extra trade route (via the UN)
(Requires the AI to build the UN)
You can get an extra trade route from airports, but that requires researching Scientific Method. The Temple of Artemis doubles trade route income, and since you have on average maybe 15 commerce per trade route (provided many open borders and big AI cities) in your best city, that's 7*2*15=210 commerce.
So total commerce= 210+178=388 commerce, multiplied by 1.5 for Beauracracy=582 commerce.
Now, you have 18 3-food tiles and 2 6-food tiles, and you need 38 food to run them all so that's 18*3+2*6-38=28 excess food. With all the health resources (you can use Globe Theatre for happiness) and buildings available to you without researching Scientific Method you will have 25 excess food to run specialists, which will give 12 scientists or 72 extra research. Asumming the GLibrary is built, that's 14, or 84 research. 2 from each religious building gives 6 , so that's 90. 90+582 gives 672 raw research before multipliers.
The total multipliers equal to 4.05 from the previous post, which gives 4.05*672=2721.6 beakers.
This is a practically impossible start because you'll never get that many resources without Worldbuilder, but even without the food you stil have about 600 raw research, which is about 2400 beakers. I'd like to see someone try and engineer such a city (I'm hopeless with this kind of stuff).
You can get as many as 7 trade routes if you're careful. You get:
1 to begin with
1 from Currency
2 from the Great Lighthouse
1 from Castles
1 from Free Market (via the UN)
1 from the extra trade route (via the UN)
(Requires the AI to build the UN)
You can get an extra trade route from airports, but that requires researching Scientific Method. The Temple of Artemis doubles trade route income, and since you have on average maybe 15 commerce per trade route (provided many open borders and big AI cities) in your best city, that's 7*2*15=210 commerce.
So total commerce= 210+178=388 commerce, multiplied by 1.5 for Beauracracy=582 commerce.
Now, you have 18 3-food tiles and 2 6-food tiles, and you need 38 food to run them all so that's 18*3+2*6-38=28 excess food. With all the health resources (you can use Globe Theatre for happiness) and buildings available to you without researching Scientific Method you will have 25 excess food to run specialists, which will give 12 scientists or 72 extra research. Asumming the GLibrary is built, that's 14, or 84 research. 2 from each religious building gives 6 , so that's 90. 90+582 gives 672 raw research before multipliers.
The total multipliers equal to 4.05 from the previous post, which gives 4.05*672=2721.6 beakers.
This is a practically impossible start because you'll never get that many resources without Worldbuilder, but even without the food you stil have about 600 raw research, which is about 2400 beakers. I'd like to see someone try and engineer such a city (I'm hopeless with this kind of stuff).
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Uncle E
Long time Prince player
Thanks alot guys ... my capitals still suck!
darrelljs
Immortal
There was a similiar thread on Apolyton a while back, where someone (Diadem I think) posted an ~2200 beaker city. I did some quick math and 3000 seemed achievable, so I started a game with these settings:
The key of course is generating a ton of great people (given a fairly fixed upper bound on commerce), so you want lots of food and lots of land. The above settings are sub-optimal from that perspective since you really only get one continent's worth of land as an entitlement, although due to the slow AI expansion at Settler I was able to claim one of every resource. I picked the settings simply because I knew the game would be dull and I didn't want to have more than 5 or 6 high food cities to manage. It took about 15 minutes to roll a start that was both coastal and could support 15 cottages without any Great Merchant food. I wasn't really interested in Great Merchants since two of them will only give you 12 raw beakers (enough extra food to run one more scientist, plus 9 beakers from Representation). I actually preferred Great Engineers due to the massive +250% Hammer bonus and the 1:1 relationship between Hammers and Beakers when building research in Warlords. But, you can't really control that so I went after Great Scientists. This ended up being a good thing when I discovered that beakers from hammers do not benefit from research bonuses
. Early tech path was for Code of Laws and Philosophy so I could run Caste System and Pascifism as long as possible. After that the focus was on health and getting to Biology ASAP (via Liberalism). Here was my capital at the peak:
So, about 300 short of my goal. If you were willing to micromanage and spend hundreds of hours on a huge map with lots of food, I would not be surprised if this total could be doubled. I had my National Epic city generating 250+ GPPs and I had 5 other cities above 100. You can see I generated exactly 40 GSs (all settled, the Physics one went to an Academy), one GE, and one GP (at 1% odds, stupid Govenor auto assigned a Priest for one turn before I caught it, but it was needed for the Golden Age along with the Music GA). The Economics GM and Fusion GE were settled. Here's the breakdown:
So all the Great Persons plus three Scientist specialists generated 396 raw beakers AND 46 raw Hammers. Those 46 raw Hammers were worth another 161 beakers, so a total of 3.6 * 396 + 161 = 1586.6 which was more than half my total. I had six trade routes (Free Market, Single Currency via the U.N.) for a total of 64 Commerce (this required starving my GP cities down to make the capital my largest city), which gives 64 * 1.5 * 3.6 = 345.6 beakers. I had 129 Commerce from tiles (golden age powered) for a total of 696.6 beakers plus another 70 beakers from tile based Hammers. That's 28% from tiles, 13% from trade, and 59% from Great Persons.
Darrell
The key of course is generating a ton of great people (given a fairly fixed upper bound on commerce), so you want lots of food and lots of land. The above settings are sub-optimal from that perspective since you really only get one continent's worth of land as an entitlement, although due to the slow AI expansion at Settler I was able to claim one of every resource. I picked the settings simply because I knew the game would be dull and I didn't want to have more than 5 or 6 high food cities to manage. It took about 15 minutes to roll a start that was both coastal and could support 15 cottages without any Great Merchant food. I wasn't really interested in Great Merchants since two of them will only give you 12 raw beakers (enough extra food to run one more scientist, plus 9 beakers from Representation). I actually preferred Great Engineers due to the massive +250% Hammer bonus and the 1:1 relationship between Hammers and Beakers when building research in Warlords. But, you can't really control that so I went after Great Scientists. This ended up being a good thing when I discovered that beakers from hammers do not benefit from research bonuses
. Early tech path was for Code of Laws and Philosophy so I could run Caste System and Pascifism as long as possible. After that the focus was on health and getting to Biology ASAP (via Liberalism). Here was my capital at the peak:
So, about 300 short of my goal. If you were willing to micromanage and spend hundreds of hours on a huge map with lots of food, I would not be surprised if this total could be doubled. I had my National Epic city generating 250+ GPPs and I had 5 other cities above 100. You can see I generated exactly 40 GSs (all settled, the Physics one went to an Academy), one GE, and one GP (at 1% odds, stupid Govenor auto assigned a Priest for one turn before I caught it, but it was needed for the Golden Age along with the Music GA). The Economics GM and Fusion GE were settled. Here's the breakdown:
So all the Great Persons plus three Scientist specialists generated 396 raw beakers AND 46 raw Hammers. Those 46 raw Hammers were worth another 161 beakers, so a total of 3.6 * 396 + 161 = 1586.6 which was more than half my total. I had six trade routes (Free Market, Single Currency via the U.N.) for a total of 64 Commerce (this required starving my GP cities down to make the capital my largest city), which gives 64 * 1.5 * 3.6 = 345.6 beakers. I had 129 Commerce from tiles (golden age powered) for a total of 696.6 beakers plus another 70 beakers from tile based Hammers. That's 28% from tiles, 13% from trade, and 59% from Great Persons.
Darrell
darrelljs
Immortal
Yup, that's right. They are really the only national wonders that can help beakers.
Darrell
Uncle E
Long time Prince player
Sorry for my ignorance, but how do those 46 hammers you mentioned also count towards beakers?
he is building Research - so that hammers are converted to research output...
Uncle E
Long time Prince player
As im nowhere near these mega-research cities, I'd thought I would ask when or where is the turning point in the tech tree/race that your civ just really speeds up and leaves the AI in the dust?
Favorite leader/civ to do so with too pls.
Im curious as Im still learning the game and can win on noble (score) sometimes, but am never very far ahead of the AI in score/tech.
Favorite leader/civ to do so with too pls.
Im curious as Im still learning the game and can win on noble (score) sometimes, but am never very far ahead of the AI in score/tech.
As im nowhere near these mega-research cities, I'd thought I would ask when or where is the turning point in the tech tree/race that your civ just really speeds up and leaves the AI in the dust?
Favorite leader/civ to do so with too pls.
Im curious as Im still learning the game and can win on noble (score) sometimes, but am never very far ahead of the AI in score/tech.
don't let those mega cities fool you.
A decent science city with oxford should give something in the 600 beakers per turn in modern era.
If you can research your era's tech in less than 10 turns, you do alright.
The rest is a matter of trades.
leaving the AIs in the dust is not a very useful goal. Better kick them in the sand
Oh my oh my...FORTY great scientists?
I once did the maths myself under some recent thread (tanks by 1500 or smth) and came to a conclusion that some 1000-1200 is doable...under reasonable gaming conditions and difficulty.
Boy did I underestimate beakers from specialists...indeed, we could basically say that infinite beakers is possible, since given infinite time you could get infinite GS.
I once did the maths myself under some recent thread (tanks by 1500 or smth) and came to a conclusion that some 1000-1200 is doable...under reasonable gaming conditions and difficulty.
Boy did I underestimate beakers from specialists...indeed, we could basically say that infinite beakers is possible, since given infinite time you could get infinite GS.
darrelljs
Immortal
Well, this is more of an exercise than a practical application. If you try this at a reasonable difficulty level (bending your entire game around one mega science city) you will probably lose.
I think the last one took 36000 GPPs, somewhere in that neighborhood (remember this was Marathon speed)
. You are right though, if you disable time victory and are very, very patient you could get infinite beakers. Even with time victory enabled if you are willing to manage more GP farms (I only had five or so) you could probably get to 5000 beakers (that would take about 100 Great Scientists). Let's see, how many GPPs does your 100th great person take?GPP(N) = N*300, ------------------------- N <= 10
GPP(N) = 3000 + N*600, ------------------ 11 <= N <= 20
GPP(N) = 3000 + 6000 + N*900, ----------- 21 <= N <= 30
GPP(N) = 3000 + 6000 + 9000 + N*1200, --- 41 <= N <= 40
Hmm...so the decade changing term seems to go 3K, 3K + 6K, 3K + 6K + 9K, ... If we define n as floor(N/10) and use the magic of z-transforms we find this can be expressed as 1500*n + 1500*n^2. The "current decade" term is simply ceil(N/10)*300*(N%10), so the formula for GPP(N) is:
GPP(N) = 1500*floor(N/10) + 1500*floor(N/10)^2 + ceil(N/10)*300*(N%10)
My 40th Great Scientist (remember I popped a Prophet) would then have taken 31,500 GPPs. That feels about right. The 100th would take 165000. The total for 1 to 100 would take 5,875,000 which assuming Pascifism and Philosophical but ignoring the National Epic and Wonder sourced GPs would take about 65000 GS turns. This also discounts the wasted GPPs for non-popped GSs at the end of the game. I guess 100 is a stretch.
Darrell