Blackhat HOF thread

Duh. Wasn't thinking about the shields from the next citizen. :undecide: The capital can do it with 4 citizens - 2 cows, FP and the wheat with a mine, which gets 10 food and 7 shields with the last 3 shields coming from the hill on growth. And you're also right that the second city can get the 10th shield from growth, either by reducing the pop to 5 and mining the wheat or growing onto the forest.

The more I think about it the more powerful that non capital pump would be for science. It just barely hurts gold production since it still generates gold from those 4 tiles, and it may even help the capital despite taking the bonuses since it no longer has to produce extra food and can grow at will. The only disadvantage is rank corruption in other cities, which according to my corruption spreadsheet would take about 5-10 additional gold on a tiny monarch map in the early going. A few extra scientists and irrigated core tiles would more than offset that loss, even ignoring the additional commerce from the worker city. One would probably do best to build/buy a library while growing to size. The biggest problem to me is unit support, but there were cities begging for population all through the BC years and it would help to be more aggressive about hitting 4 turn research early.

One question: Is your suggestion to minimize city size just to push to be more creative, or do you believe smaller pumps are optimal? I guess they preserve valuable core tiles for other cities?
 
It just barely hurts gold production since it still generates gold from those 4 tiles, and it may even help the capital despite taking the bonuses since it no longer has to produce extra food and can grow at will.

A capital which gets to size 12 earlier with all of it's tiles worked can more quickly put in a market, library, and university. It can also more easily/quickly snag Cope's and Newton's in a science game. It might also more easily put in a wonder to trigger a golden age.

One question: Is your suggestion to minimize city size just to push to be more creative, or do you believe smaller pumps are optimal? I guess they preserve valuable core tiles for other cities?

I believe that larger one turn pumps have the advantage for a research based game... if they have the scientific improvements.

But, I had started thinking about these in the context of a histographic game. In a histographic game the smaller the 1 turn pump, the more tiles you have for other cities to say build marketplaces and military.

Your capital also makes for an interesting case though which might suggest it better as a size 5 one turn worker pump. As a size 4 one turn worker pump it can't function as a two turn settler pump during a golden age (without rails). But, it could function as two turn settler pump during the golden age at size 5.

Wouldn't you lose fewer citizens from the effects of disease with a smaller worker pump?
 
I see your point. I was thinking "Worked tile = score", but there's a lot going on in that part of the game.

Wouldn't you lose fewer citizens from the effects of disease with a smaller worker pump?

Don't know. I always thought disease was a function of the number of citizens working diseased squares, but maybe it is simply a flag and a probability based on population. Did you know you can spend 45 minutes browsing threads without finding a single remotely quantitative answer? I did learn not to settle on floodplains though.

As a size 4 one turn worker pump it can't function as a two turn settler pump during a golden age (without rails). But, it could function as two turn settler pump during the golden age at size 5.

Interesting observation. Speaking of Golden ages and histographic attempts, does this potentially change the optimal tribe for histographic attempts to the iroquois?

To my eye the maya have two big disadvantages:
1. Useless UU
2. Pyramids trigger a golden age, so an early SGL doesn't help much

Of course they make up for it with industrious workers, but if you can build a few worker pumps on a big map that is less important. And the commercial trait could result in an extra worker pump. The benefit of the industrious trait would basically be unit support, balanced against reduced corruption, the most cost effective UU in the game, and the possibility of the pyramids without triggering a GA. And more taxmen in corrupt cities could offset unit support costs too. I think it could be especially powerful on middle difficulties where the MW can dominate and the pyramids can be hand built. Then again, while Drazek's map had 3 potential worker pumps I don't know how repeatable that is.
 
Speaking of Golden ages and histographic attempts, does this potentially change the optimal tribe for histographic attempts to the iroquois?

Well, probably most 1 turn worker pumps in a histographic game produced settlers while in Despotism. So, they might have had mined squares in Despotism that get irrigated in/near/immediately after the change to the better government. The Maya make this transition more easily with faster workers. They can also more easily set up a 1 turn worker pump in despotism (if that's worthwhile in comparison to multiple settler factories).

Additionally, the Maya can more quickly rail for a faster conquest and transportation, can more quickly forest and chop for more shields earlier, and more quickly rail for growth and production.

I think that having free granaries earlier offsets the weaker production for most histographic games.

You only get points for happy/content citizens and more territory. Who grows faster when you have 100, 200, and then 300 cities? The Maya or the Iroquois? I'd think that the Maya do.

To me, making up for industrious workers only makes sense when your growth plateaus at some point. That might happen early enough for a conquest or domination game. But, for a histographic game where you will have hospitals, your growth doesn't plateau until every city has a hospital, every relevant tile gets railed, every relevant tile gets irrigated, the citizens stay happy/content, and you've maxed out/almost maxed out the size of those cities. On a huge maps, that's hundreds of cities and thousands of tiles needed irrigated and railed.

The mounted warrior is great and all, but knights aren't that far away. What is the difference in turns of average number of turns needed to produce a knight vs. how many turns needed to produce a mounted warrior? If you have enough cash, the difference is 0. If you don't have enough cash, is it really that large? I wouldn't think so

So I would still say that the Maya will do better overall.
 
Looking to get a feel for the use of worker pumps, I've been playing a small regent histographic map with the Iroquois.

I set up 3 - 2 turn pumps in despotic core towns, and used corrupt towns to slowly build settlers to supplement the capital pump. It's not overpowering but it worked well enough. The capital is currently 3 turning settlers in a golden age, and will pivot to a worker pump once the GA ends.

I see your point about industrious workers. It's not just total time to develop the land but the short term progress toward that goal. The Iroquois might be able to catch up by the end of the game with an extra pump, but they will certainly be far worse in tile development at 1000 BC. And I really struggled with early core development.

I also see the point about the MW - while I had access to it much earlier, I was building settlers until knights were a few turns away. It does seem that MW's are more powerful against a lower level AI who can't spam units or send GPT though. Until pikes are in abundance, a swarm of MW's should do everything I need, and cavalry should be available by then. And as mentioned in posts about my previous regent milk run, cash is not easy to come by at this stage so the cheaper unit has a real advantage.

But the commercial trait seems like it is really helping out. After playing those tiny maps I'm constantly surprised by the lack of corruption in cities a good bit from my capital. No extra worker pumps though. Only my capital had a suitable location.

Anyway, I'm inclined to agree that the Maya are better overall now that I consider the early impact of industrious workers more fully, but lower level games (especially on smaller maps) may benefit from the MW and commercial trait enough to justify the change.
 
Finished out the small regent iroquois histographic game with a final score of 9091. All settings were the same as described, and mapfinder found me a decent map with a domination limit of 1324 and a cow in range of the capital. That's not really spectacular on the dom limit, but it's good enough for the small Regent map. Once a neighbor built the pyramids it was getting played out.

The lessons of the above post held true throughout the mid game. The MW made quick work of 2 spear equipped AI before cavalry took over and cut through them like a hot knife through butter. Not sure what year, but I felt good about how quickly I hit to dom limit. They pyramids were built three cities from my border, so within a few turns of starting the military expansion we had granaries everywhere. The ToA was built by the civ on the other side of the first target so we then got border expansion to the first level before researching education. A lack of infrastructure plagued me throughout the Middle Ages, and when I finally got enough workers from my 1 turn capital pump and 5-7 2 turn core pumps the unit support was crippling and slowed my progress from steam to RP. At that point the infrastructure was quickly completed, CE's started putting in crazy shields, workers were added where appropriate and the game proceeded as expected. But there were a lot of citizen turns on unimproved tiles, many of which were wetlands. There is a chance I use the Iroquois again, but I doubt it. I swore them off in game and would do well to stick to that, despite the appeal of the commercial trait.

One key point I failed to understand from Spoonwood's posts is the priority of a Worker vs settler pump in early Republic, and I failed to appropriately changeover the system. That left me focusing all core cities on settlers for far too long and suddenly realizing how bad the worker situation was. As soon as Rex was over the entire core went to workers, and I had a 1 turn pump in the capital but the damage was done and it took at least 100 turns before I stopped losing points because of the mistake. Next time the worker pump will turn on as soon as we switch to Republic, and other towns will supply the settlers from there. The capital was the only worker pump, and it ran as a 5 citizen pump before RR and a 10 citizen pump until everything was up to size and the worker stacks were rebuilt. There were a few turns were I excessively reduced the worker population and pollution stuck around for a turn or two, but the capital plus tundra towns got more workers in the field fairly quickly.

My milking was a bit sloppy, especially with respect to city placement. After it became clear that I had badly botched the workers, but was still going to get a good score and the number 1 slot I just did not care enough to count tile values and move cities to get max points per tile, obsess over the domination limit, or get all possible sea squares so I set my territory to 64% and sold most culture. I even (gasp) Shift-A automated some workers once the only remaining task was RR and mining hills. My favorite moment there was when the program sent a horde of workers 1 by 1 to a hill next to a hostile civ and each worker immediately moved off the hill and fortified in the nearby town without doing any work even though there was a defender on the hill. It was hilarious watching the simpleminded logic at work. *shrug* It turned out to be more trouble to track them down than it would have been just manually ordering the correct moves in the first place.

One question that's unsettled for me is when to add a worker into a town. The guideline I used once all tiles were improved was to wait until 2 turn growth ended then add workers until it had 1 or 2 spare FPT then let it get the food box almost full and adding in the remaining worker to stop growth. I'm sure the right strategy differs based on the number of workers, but I'm not sure how bet to evaluate it. Maybe if one actually counted the food value of tiles as suggested by E-man it would be fairly easy (as in, less than 1 hour of extra work on a small map) to calculate the total number of final citizens and extrapolate from your current worker production to estimate the total number of workers that can be added.

Ultimately, I see how powerful the concept can be, and know that the one capital worker pump boosted total score all other things being equal, though in my quest for 'efficient' worker production I followed a very suboptimal strategy to get there. Oh well, still got a solid number 1 slot, and the final score was a respectable but unspectacular 2.27 on the adjusted scale shown in the first post. There's a long way to go to match those optimized huge map ratios over 2.6 though.
 
Thanks Spoonwood!

I've never played a single 20k game before, so wanted to get my feet wet and try it out. Setup the ottomans on a huge 80% arch map on warlord, with what I believed to be a 3 billion year old world. It was probably 5 B instead, because the mountains were a bit skimpy. Anyway, ran mapfinder for cows and found a map with 8 cows in the capital radius on a coastal spot. Unfortunately it had no shield rich squares, almost all grass and coast, and the cows wound up meaning fast growth and extra food, and not much more. I knew there was no reason to play it out, but I didn't really feel like starting over so...

I didn't keep a build log, so it's easier to just list the wonders that didn't get built. Ivory required an expedition to build a city next to France, so when I finally got started on the SoZ France had been working on it a while and beat me to it. Then I failed to build the ToA until it was obsolete - there were always more shield efficient wonders to work on until Education was discovered, and I don't know if it's better to build a less than optimal wonder to make sure you get it or risk spending the shields on something like Leo's later. The same happened to the Knights Templar, but that was because I beelined industrialization after getting free artistry and already had steam when chivalry came in. Other than that I got literally every wonder until the modern age. Multiple invasions were necessary to farm leaders and obtain Coal, and besides the first MGL for the army I think I got 3 more leaders to rush the heroic epic, the intelligence agency, and the military academy.

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The game finished in 1550. It was fun, and now I know how to do 20k.
 
mapfinder has been running to find a suitable map that pops an SGL for about 4 days now, so most of my play has been the first 1000 years before abandoning lately. But a few lessons have been interesting lately.

The first game was conquest on a huge warlord map. These were leftover maps from earlier, abandoned runs. Several maps have all suffered from the same deficiency as the emperor conquest game that went to domination instead - missing opponents. And the map is so big that it takes forever to definitely prove that one is missing at all, much less mobilize to invade an island. So that hasn't worked out despite a lot of play time.

But my thinking on efficiency shifted a lot in the latest game. Previously "efficiency" meant that the units I lost did not die in vain and we never let a spear heal. MW's traveled in larger stacks and never began an assault that they couldn't finish. That's a fine strategy for more traditional play styles (especially on higher levels), but on speed games for the HOF I've started thinking of mounted warrior turns the way I think of worker turns. Every single turn must accomplish something, and an injured unit is almost a good thing in the same way a busy worker is a good thing. His idleness is accomplishing something by healing from the last fight. A healthy and idle MW is unacceptable, and if I have two MW's ahead of a stack of eight, the two will proceed past a enemy position to a more distant objective only for the sake of getting them further away from home. In sense, each tile further from home is an investment in that unit. generally lead units do whatever they can to be helpful and get some damage so they can wait on others to catch up. Sometimes that's a risky assault on a useless town, sometimes it's pillaging key tiles, sometimes it's taking out isolated units in the open. Maybe that's simple and obvious, but I've never seen that philosophy discussed and it really helped. My first raiding party was 3 MW's who had nothing better to do than start a fight and got to heal between the first town and reinforcements.

Victory conditions have started to break out into two start categories in my mind - Production (20k, conquest) and expansion (science, histographic, domination, and 100k). The conquest condition especially weirds me out because you've got so many competing priorities for workers and growth and units that it's hard to know what to prioritize. It feels like a 8 dimensional drag race where each turn is crucial and you must complete some key tasks like worker builds but that they really set a city back on progress to making MW's. 20k is a lot easier of course since there's only 1 goal.

But that expansion category tends to be a relatively straightforward process of initial . Right now I'm working on the chieftain 100k victory condition on a standard map trying to take the number 1 slot. In previous games like the histographic game with the Iroquois I've muddled along with just 1 settler factory, which paradoxically is kind of required on 60% maps selected for dom limit. But on my 100k maps mapfinder can run purely for 3 cow starts with a river, and 3 settler factory starts can be a selection criteria. I've probably played around 40 maps and only gotten 1 SGL on a map that I abandoned, but the start process has mostly become:

1. Settle capital in location allowing at least 2 other river towns access to a cow.
2. Build warrior while town grows. Water and road grassland cows first. research Masonry at full speed.
3. When warrior completes switch to settler unless food is short. That could be because I moved away from cows in step 1, or because cows are on plains. Send warrior exploring the immediate area trying to find additional resources and terrain to support setter factories. Abandon if 3 factories are not possible, even before discovering Masonry. The SGL is great, but it doesn't change the map.
4. If SGL build pyramids.
5. If no SGL but the map has 4 settler factory potential I'll save it and build settlers until I have 5 or 6 towns, 4 for settlers and 2 for ToA and pyramids, then switch to granaries.
6. If at any time a warrior is built because of production/food balance issue I don't feel bad at all. They research half the ancient age techs for me. And I generally lose no opportunity to declare on a backwards AI, take their worker if possible, and pillage key tiles before asking for peace. They're no threat obviously, but it doesn't hurt to set them back 20 turns. Side note: is there anything worse than popping philosophy from a hut with 1 turn left on a tech? Is there anything you can do to prevent this?

One game has proceeded to 1550 BC based on the 4 factory criteria with 4 grassland cows, a wheat, and 2 forest game, plus 10 Bonus Grasslands in the radius of the 4 relevant cities.

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One of those cities could not go on a river so the wheat is required to boost food to 5, and will be irrigated to allow a forest citizen. Right now 3 of those are 4 turning settlers with some tedious tile swapping involved. The wheat city was the last to be founded and is prebuilding the ToA. This is nothing special but it's good practice while waiting for an SGL.

Currently I'm playing with the Sumerians, but am running mapfinder for the celts. Had a discussion on Spoonwoods HOF thread about it, and it looks to me like the advantages of each are:

Celts: Shorter anarchy (saves ~4 turns on finish?), 1/2 price cathedrals more easily whipped than full price

Sumerians: more likely SGL's (made up by patience with celts), no GA with pyramids, and earlier cheap libraries (but a big shield gap to whip the cathedrals)

The ultra early golden age sucks with the Celts, but I think it can be effectively used by getting settler factories working earlier and catching up on infrastructure before the end of the GA. Bonus grass tiles suddenly throw off 2 shields, and if you've irrigated the cows already the factories are pretty easy to run. If you get 2 pumps working initially it's pretty huge to be producing settlers every 2 turns from 3000 BC.

The biggest difficulty in all this is the need for a fast ToA prebuild. If there are n settler factories then I initially made my n+1 and n+2 towns wonder builds, but one could easily argue that the 2nd level wonder town should go in first to collect shields on ToA since that is critical path to earning culture. An even more radical approach with 4 factories is to use a factory location to build the wonder before converting it to settlers. The more I think about it the more right that last answer is, but I haven't done the math on it. In fact, the nearby cities should probably make workers to add into the ToA city after improving key territory. Unfortunately in this situation 03 is not on a river, so it won't grow past 6, and the ToA will be a bit slow.
 
So I've found 3 maps with potential for a fast 100k. Keep in mind that this is on a standard sized map at Chieftain. All games are stopped at 1400 BC right now.

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This is my latest game. I obtained an SGL on writing in ~1600 BC, which waited until last turn to build the ToA after philosophy came in with poly as the free tech. The pyramids are struggling along in 04. This struggle is due to a lack of workers caused by a failure to plan. There are a total of 5 cows, a wheat, and 12 bonus grasslands within reach of the 5 starting towns. I looked at this and hoped to run 5 - 4 turn settler factories eventually. What I didn't really get is the number of worker turns required to develop so many tiles, and so I focused on granary and settler builds early. 00 became a solid factory a while back but 01 and 02 are still struggling to get in sync, 03 will probably never be a 4 turn factory in despotism, and 04 is struggling to grow. Once the workers are finished in 01 they'll head north. Corruption seemed worse than I expected in 02, which is part of why there are some wasted improvements there. 10 cities are already planted and another 2 settlers are making their way out.


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This start has 4 factories, utilizing 12 bonus grasslands, 3 grass+1plains cow, and a wheat. 3 factories are fully operational, and 02 is maybe 20ish turns from finishing the ToA. For some reason 03 started up as a settler factory much easier than 02 in the first game despite the distance. a plains cow and extra food to work the forest will do that I guess. I currently have 8 cities and 6 settlers. Now that I look at it, that's not much worse than my 10+2 above, and I wasn't feeling that bad about the speed of my start here. Note that tech is a bit slow too.

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This is the game I wrote about earlier. In 1400 BC it has 15 towns and 5 settlers, but the ToA is 45 turns away from finishing. If I had it to do over, 01 would be the wonder build and 03 would have focused on workers while development was finished elsewhere. Looking back at this start I remember that 01 was very quick to build the granary and start producing settlers because of those game on forest. I had no idea but those two tiles probably accounted for a lot of the 6-8 settler lead. Not only did it get 01 working, workers focused on 02 more quickly because of it.

Note how closely those 4 cities are spaced. It appears to me that a fundamental mistake in the SGL game was spacing a bit wider with the 3 cities to the SE of 00 therefore increasing corruption and the number of raw shields needed to get appropriate production. In the first game 02 only gets 7 usable shields from 9 raw, while in this game 10 shields yields 9 usable in the 02 spot. My goal was to reach a few key tiles farther out, but I should have placed 02 E-E of the capital and 01 S-S. Honestly I just got greedy with 01, trying to squeeze a fifth spot in there where it never had a chance. There are worse things than a spare cow... And that would have let me build granaries faster by reducing the settlers needed by 1.

I love how writing these up shows me what went wrong and right in certain games. I barely noticed how good those game in the forest were to me until now, and totally missed the spacing issues. I've always assumed wider spacing is better, but when trying to build efficient factories around a food rich core, corruption can make or break you.

Alright, off to play the SGL game.
 

Attachments

Finished the chieftain 100k with a decent date, but it definitely did not work out like I'd hoped. For some reason, and there is not the slightest way to justify this misconception, I thought that the optimal strategy was to focus on getting libraries as early as possible in non core cities and did not place corrupt towns on settler production. At some point I got curious and opened Donnybrook's 10 AD save from the number one game and realized that he had every town producing settlers or workers. The worst part was that pop rushing early libraries was crippling due to lack of luxuries and roads. Once I corrected the error growth was much quicker. Final date was 850 AD, which tied for the second position but loses the score tie breaker. I'm not sure that I could have beaten Donnybrook from the 1400BC situation, but it would have been close with a better strategy.

Golden age was well timed - The pyramids had to be delayed 3 or 4 turns while feudalism came in, and finished the turn we came out of anarchy around 600 BC. During the GA I had two 2 turn factories and another four 4 turners. It was a very solid core and I hate that I squandered it.

The mechanics of settler production with pop rushing shocked me. 3 extra food is enough to give you a 12 turn factory with the pyramids even in the most corrupt town. The details are simply not discussed much, either because it's a very old strategy or because it's only really useful for the least popular VC. It might be useful in a large/huge domination game at lower levels too I guess. I had over 100 settlers moving out to the boundaries when production was finally shutdown.

I also regret the decision to build the ToA with the SGL. I thought that getting culture in ASAP was critical, but a 550BC save only shows 1800 culture, just after the pyramids were built. At the end of the game I was getting 2600 culture per turn. Lesson learned: except for the ToA slow build, not a single shield should be taken from growth to build culture until nearing the dom limit. Still not so sure about going straight to Feudalism either, but it's a tough tradeoff to give up pop rushing for the late AA. At most you'll save 2 turns of max culture growth, and you can easily save that by finishing expansion sooner and being bigger when the ToA is built.
 
Played a small Demigod conquest game that finished in 610 BC, which takes the 6th slot in a table of 8. The lesson, as should be clear to me by now, is that I'm not very good at conquest games. Not really sure what I don't do right with them. Oh well, this was several bests for me anyway, with the highest difficulty level I've ever won on, the fastest game time I've ever had (about 3.5 hours) and the first BC finish date I've ever had. All those feel good. Now the only unfilled quartermasters slot is a fastest finish regent game. I need to study some of the faster conquest games better though, because 1500 BC is insane.

Not much to talk about on the game itself. Played with England, Korea, and India. 5 grassland cow start, which allowed me to run a 4 turn factory with no granary, which was nice. Built 8 cities and built barracks in 5 while leaving the 3 weaker cities to make regulars. At the end I had 4 3turn MW towns. The layout of opponents worked out very well, with all 3 in one direction, and england on the opposite side of Korea. England got a DOW as soon as writing was obtained and Korea was signed in immediately, then India showed up on the border with a settler, so they got an immediate DOW with another alliance from Korea, and Korea was pulled in 2 directions. Most of my gold went to Korea to buy those alliances, but it's not like there was another use for it in despotism.
 
Quick question:

Playing a large regent science game using a CB start to fish for SGL's. I figured since there's no need for 6 scientific opponents, a few should be expansionist to allow them to research a bunch in the ancient age and save some turns, but so far I've met two tribes early on and both have had CB already from huts.

Is this just part of it and something that reduces the chances of an SGL, or is it a known problem with expansionist tribes that makes it difficult/impossible to fish for SGL's? Should I just plan on researching mysticism on every promising map to give a decent chance of at least one SGL roll?

Also, it seems like CB is overrepresented in hut pops, but I don't know if that's actually true or just my disappointment speaking. If true then it would suggest another tech might be better.
 
just found this:

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Never seen anything like it on a 60% map. Maybe the SGL isn't so critical after all, though I would have moved East had I known about the other two cows though. I guess it's strong enough to give 4 settler factories regardless of river positions, and I think a worker pump is possible with 3 cows, a BG, and a mined plain square.

Spoonwood - Is this good enough to overcome the lack of a pyramids SGL? I think yes, with hand built pyramids starting ASAP.
 
Spoonwood - Is this good enough to overcome the lack of a pyramids SGL?

I don't know.

I also don't know the answers to your other questions. I do prefer as many scientific opponents as possible though for a fast space game.
 
I also don't know the answers to your other questions.

I found the answers. No. Just no.

launched in 1160, the early game was brutal and the free tech "luck" terrible. 4 turned from Education onward but it sucked getting there. A few observations:

Expansionists - precludes the possibility of an SGL with early hut popping, popped philosophy before I could even finish CoL, and found virtually no useful advances after that. They rocketed out of the gate early when I didn't have contacts, then did nothing to push the game along later. After this game, there is no level/map combination for which I would recommend expansionist civs for a fast science game. Maybe not even with Russia. But I might be willing to consider expansionist opponents for a low level 100k game, where getting to feudalism ASAP with minimal cost is the primary tech goal.

Lack of SGL - It took a long time to get research chugging along at 4 turns. And the completion of the pyramids was strongly correlated to that accomplishment. Triggering the GA just after completing the pyramids started it of course, and republic was crucial as well, but the the granaries really allowed sustainability so that after the GA the research stayed fast for the rest of the game. I'd say the conventional wisdom requiring an early SGL for science games is indeed appropriate.

Free techs - A few posts back I wrote something dumb about not needing 6 scientific civs. That didn't go so well, with Monotheism, engineering, and medicine the only required free techs from the first two age transitions. Fortunately the modern age went better and I got the max number. The transition from the ancient was a failure due to lack of contact with Russia and the Ottomans, but getting nationalism after the AI got medicine and nationalism was the real crusher - even sanitation would have been helpful...

Expansion - got to about 15% territory with well developed cities but was running out of research firepower midway through the IA. Fortunately the Infantry and later tanks were making short work of spears. By the end of the game I had 37% and was 4 turning with 30% science. In the future I would expect 25 - 30% territory to be the long term target for empire size. Also, the excessive focus on settler factories was detrimental early, as the lack of citizens in core towns depressed science progress.

Tech cost - For some reason I thought tech cost increased with more civilizations and so assumed that minimum civs was a requirement for fast finishes. That was wrong - the monopoly costs stays the same and just the discount for 2nd/3rd/etc discoverers is reduced. Should have used more opponents.
 
Expansionists - precludes the possibility of an SGL with early hut popping, popped philosophy before I could even finish CoL, and found virtually no useful advances after that.

Are you playing as expansionist or having expansionist opponents? If you play as expansionist, you can still pick up an early SGL via a hut (though you won't find many huts around on Tiny maps). You can also research philosophy and pick up Code of Laws via a hut.
 
Are you playing as expansionist or having expansionist opponents?

I meant expansionist opponents. Sorry that wasn't clear. The idea was to get a third effective trait by letting expansionist AI push the tech pace early while the ag trait set me up to take over after the ancient. Apparently you can't rely on the AI for anything.
 
But, if you really want to maximize what an RoP can do for you, you need a little more force than you might need to take the city *if* you can figure out how many units they have defending the city, but you don't want too many units in one spot, since that takes units away from other spots. It doesn't seem hard to attack only with "overwhelming force" if you play carefully enough. But, to stack your units with "just overwhelming force" in multiple places, I don't know how to do at this point, at least.

For some reason that comment from Spoonwoods histographic thread always stood out to me. "just overwhelming force" is indeed a next to impossible calculation, but that doesn't mean it must be unachievable. Really, I can't think of a simpler or more precise statement of the goal of all the military tactics we discuss. War settlers, artillery application, the obsession with fast units, railing under spent units, funnels of doom - all these things are about maximizing the ability to press just enough to topple a city or defend yourself without expending the least bit of excessive resources.

This is what my babylon looks like in my most recent autosave.

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We're at peace and have had an ROP for about 4 turns. We've got armies in a few places deep in enemy territory, but that's not what babylon should fear.

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Those infantry have settlers underneath them.

After a bit of peace renegotiation (they even agreed to send me dyes for a reduced cost!) babylon decided to betray the trust of my great ottoman empire and declare war despite our ROP. The shame! They said the trade route was broken and they could no longer deliver the dyes to my capital, but I think they just wanted an excuse... Anyway, this is the same area near the end of the turn:

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14 of 16 Babylonian cities fell to the combined use of artillery, sipahis, and armies. The settlers combined with at least 100 worker turns allowed precise application of artillery fire to almost every city and judicious application of armies and sipahi to preserve artillery for the next city in the chain. Cities 26, 27, 28, and 29 were the war town positions that allowed key artillery strikes and minimal movement loss for approaching units.

Now to be clear, I had an overwhelming advantage that they simply had no countermeasure for. I don't want to sell this as some game changing method as it doesn't multiply your forces like disconnect/reconnect does for unit production and GPT deals. All it does is let you more effectively utilize your existing forces in precisely the amount required to do the job. That is, to help you apply "just overwhelming force."

Unfortunately it relies on rails and artillery proper to be significantly more effective than traditional ROP rape. During the Knight/cannon period it would however allow localized force flexibility between 3 or 4 towns and allow you to have several power bases from the start of the war. Imagine a stack of knights and a settler at towns 26 and 27 - each able to hit 3 towns, with a common "flex target" at ellipi. That would allow you to cut a deep swath through their core before they have a chance to respond rather than being limited to attacking towns within 4 tiles of your original borders.

This seems too obvious not to be common knowledge. At the same time, it's similar to basic artillery strategy or war settlers, both of which received strategy articles. While war settlers are a common tactic, and ROP rape is a widely acknowledged way to gain an advantage, I've never seen the combined use of ROP and war settlers discussed. That is to say, It's doubtful that this is a novel idea, though it may be novel for the forum. How widely used/known is this particular implementation?

Of course walking settlers into position (that is, placing a settler next to an existing town, disbanding the town and settling again to move the borders) could accomplish most of this but it would take far more settlers and even then cannot overcome unroaded tiles. Another subtler impact of this tactic is it allows you to do far more comprehensive "artillery scouting" to understand the defenses of a town and make reactive decisions to minimize the force required. For instance, one might be able to discover the defensive presence of 5 towns at the same time using bombardment and observers, then utilize armies and individual cavalry in the most efficient way based on this info, all without expending the significant cash required to conduct investigations. Often unroaded tiles would restrict such an approach when settler walking.

Anyway, that is the absolute most effective ROP rape strategy I've found. It doesn't rely on extensive researching of opposing towns (though it might with knights), it doesn't expose you to extensive losses if a few battles go wrong, and it comes pretty close to maximizing the territory you can gain with your available forces. It doesn't have a huge effect because war settlers largely accomplish the desired effects of ROP rape anyway, but if you're planning an ROP rape this is the way to do it. See attached for the autosave before the assault if you want to try for yourself.
 

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Of course walking settlers into position (that is, placing a settler next to an existing town, disbanding the town and settling again to move the borders) could accomplish most of this but it would take far more settlers and even then cannot overcome unroaded tiles.

Also, and you may well realize this, you could put enough workers into the city *before* you disband it to immediately build a road. With an industrious tribe, you only need a single worker for the road. Actually, come to think of it, that would make for a way to minimize the number of turns spent in enemy territory in a government with war weariness also before artillery proper, since you wouldn't spend so much time in enemy territory. You plop a city down as close you can with enough force ready to take a city and some unit with movement of two. Then you use another settler and workers, put the workers in the first city spot, and the settler at the new spot, disband the first city, found the second city and then move your troops to capture the city. And the value of doing that might be higher if you really don't want the AI to have that city... say if it has a strategic resource, or if you would have to leave half of your offensive units not attacking in some turn unless you found one city, then disband and found another city close enough to the target.

With respect to knowledge of this game, I think a lot of it we can safely regard as forgotten. I mean, if you look at posts from 2001-2005 or so you can find a lot more activity later on than afterwards. And a fair number of people posted things, and then seem to have not played anymore or taken some breaks. Though, come to think of it, when I've taken a few month or so break I don't seem to forget much if anything. Then again, that isn't like not having played the game in 10 years.
 
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