Blocking reverse engineering

[chuft]

I would like to add some special units that cannot be reverse engineered. Is there any way to do that? I know natives and Unity units cannot be reverse engineered, but it seems like everything else can.

 

[vyeh]

#UNITS
23
Colony Pod,             Infantry, Colony Pod,   Scout,      8, 0, 0, None,    -1, 00000000000000000000000000
Formers,                Infantry, Formers,      Scout,      9, 0, 0, Ecology, -1, 00000000000000000000000000
Scout Patrol,           Infantry, Gun,          Scout,      3, 0, 0, None,    -1, 00000000000000000000000000
Transport Foil,         Foil,     Transport,    Scout,      7, 0, 0, DocFlex, -1, 00000000000000000000000000
*Sea Formers,           Foil,     Formers,      Scout,      9, 0, 0, [b]Disable[/b], -1, 00000000000000000000000000
Supply Crawler,         Infantry, Supply,       Scout,     10, 0, 0, IndAuto, -1, 00000000000000000000000000
Probe Team,             Speeder,  Probe Team,   Scout,     11, 0, 0, PlaNets, -1, 00000000000000000000000000
Alien Artifact,         Infantry, Artifact,     Scout,     12,10, 0, [b]Disable[/b],  2, 00000000000000000000000000
Mind Worms,             Infantry, Psi,          Psi,        1, 5, 0, CentEmp,  3, 00000000000000000000000000
Isle of the Deep,       Foil,     Psi,          Psi,        7, 8, 4, CentMed, -1, 00000000000000000000000000
Locusts of Chiron,      Gravship, Psi,          Psi,        4,10, 0, CentGen, -1, 00000000000000000000100000
Unity Rover,            Speeder,  Gun,          Scout,      3, 0, 0, [b]Disable[/b], -1, 00000000000000000000000000
Unity Scout Chopper,    Copter,   Gun,          Scout,      4, 0, 0, [b]Disable[/b], -1, 00000000000000000000100000
Unity Foil,             Foil,     Transport,    Scout,      7, 0, 0, [b]Disable[/b], -1, 00100000000000000000000000
Sealurk,                Foil,     Psi,          Psi,        6, 6, 0, CentPsi,  4, 00000000000000000001000000
Spore Launcher,         Infantry, Psi,          Psi,        0, 5, 0, Bioadap,  5, 00000000001000000000000000
Battle Ogre MK1,        Infantry, R-Laser,      3-Res,      0,10, 0, [b]Disable[/b],  6, 00010000000000000000000000
Battle Ogre MK2,        Infantry, R-Bolt,       8-Res,      0,15, 0, [b]Disable[/b],  6, 10010000000000000000000000
Battle Ogre MK3,        Speeder,  String,       Stasis,     0,20, 0, [b]Disable[/b],  6, 10010000000000000000000000
Fungal Tower,           Infantry, Psi,          Psi,        3, 0, 0, [b]Disable[/b],  1, 00000000000000000000000000
Unity Mining Laser,     Infantry, Laser,        Scout,      0, 0, 0, [b]Disable[/b], -1, 00000000000000000000000000
Sea Escape Pod,         Foil,     Colony Pod,   Scout,      8, 0, 0, [b]Disable[/b], -1, 00000000000000000000000000
Unity Gunship,          Foil,     Gun,          Scout,     -1, 0, 0, [b]Disable[/b], -1, 00000000000000000000000000

Try using "Disable." I am not sure it will work, but I think it is worth trying.

Modify your alphax.txt.

Create a scenario.

Give your faction the new unit.

See if it appears in the Unit Design Workshop.

Another possibility is that the non reverse engineered units are hard-coded by position. Try substituting your unit for a Battle Ogre Mk III.

 

[chuft]

I thought Disable meant that the unit could not be built. I want to add units that become available with certain techs, but I could not do that if I put the prereq tech at "disable" - the units would never become available.

Anybody know why the sea formers are listed as "disable" (obviously they can be built, unlike the others) and have an asterisk next to their name?

 

[vyeh]

Correct. Disable means the unit can't be built.

If the unit will become available at a certain tech, why are you worried about reverse engineering if it is mind probed from another faction?

You have to construct sea formers in the Design Workshop, by combining a foil chassis with a terraforming module. Unlike the basic units with a tech prerequisite or none (e.g. scout patrol), they do not show up automatically when you get the tech prerequisite or at the beginning (e.g. socut patrol or colony pod).

The asterisk doesn't show up. It is part of being in slot 4. I think Darsnan was able to use that fact for one of his scenarios.

 

[chuft]

If sea formers don't show up, I wonder why they are in the basic units list. Is there some weird way to get them?

If the unit will become available at a certain tech, why are you worried about reverse engineering

Because I don't want it used for general purposes. Say for example I create a "balloon" unit with a custom graphic that uses a gravship chassis and Transport for its weapons module and make it available fairly early. With a fission reactor it would not be able to go very fast, especially with the nerfed air range mod I am making, it would just be an amusing unit to explore with and carry a unit around. If it could be reverse engineered, players would be able to have full blown gravship combat units early in the game, which is not my intent.

 

[vyeh]

If sea formers don't show up, I wonder why they are in the basic units list. Is there some weird way to get them?

I speculate they are there for the AI. Perhaps the AI is more likely to build units that are in the basic units list.

Because I don't want it used for general purposes. Say for example I create a "balloon" unit with a custom graphic that uses a gravship chassis and Transport for its weapons module and make it available fairly early. With a fission reactor it would not be able to go very fast, especially with the nerfed air range mod I am making, it would just be an amusing unit to explore with and carry a unit around. If it could be reverse engineered, players would be able to have full blown gravship combat units early in the game, which is not my intent.

Well, mindworms do have a tech prerequisite, but they can't be reversed engineered. You might try using a slot that would normally go for native life or for a Unity unit. If you have a tech prerequisite, I suspect you will get something like the probe team which can be reversed engineered for the chassis, unless it is in a native life slot, which can be built when you have the proper prerequisite but you can't build it simply because you've captured a mindworm.

 

[chuft]

I have a unit I added to the units list for the AI to use called a pesky submarine. It has nerve gas pods, SAM capability, sub capability, and a marine detachment. It becomes available at Doctrine Initiative. (Human players are supposed to Obsolete it).

In the scenario editor I opened a turn 2 game and added Doctrine Initiative and a pesky submarine and tried to reverse engineer it. Interestingly it would not allow me to reverse engineer anything other than the armor, weapons and Marine Detachment ability. I tried adding the Nanometallurgy tech and it still wouldn't let me reverse engineer Deep Pressure Hull. There is more going on in this Reverse Engineering than meets the eye, since this is a buildable unit in my mod.

 

[vyeh]

Given the situation with probe units, you could probably reverse engineer the chassis (if it wasn't already available at Doctrine: Initiative).

 

[chuft]

I just tried reverse engineering my AI Formers which have fungicide tanks and Super. All factions start with the ability to build these at the start of the game, but humans are supposed to Obsolete it.

It will let me build the unit, but not reverse engineer the Super ability, but it will let me reverse engineer the fungicidal ability.

I wonder if only the first special ability can be reverse engineered.

 

[chuft]

It seems to be allowing reverse engineering of whatever ability is the first listed in the flags from left to right: Marine Detachment in the case of the sub, and Fungicidal Tanks in the case of the formers. Interesting!

 

[vyeh]

That is interesting. So it looks like one can reverse engineer weapons, armor, chassis and the first special ability. I would imagine the reactor could also be reverse engineered.

 

[chuft]

I tested adding a Shoggoths unit. When I made it Psi-Psi for attack and defense, I could not reverse engineer it at all - when I tried, it went to a sea colony pod (!). When I made it Planet Buster - 8-Res for attack and defense, it went to a foil graphic and let me use those weapon systems.

It appears a psi-psi unit cannot be reverse engineered, which is cool for adding new psi units without worrying about reverse engineering of those high level attacks and defenses. Unfortunately any other weapon and armor system seems to be reverse engineerable.

By the way, despite being "psi-psi" the shoggoth got stopped cold by fungus squares so it did not move like a native.

 

[chuft]

It turns out the magic item is having a psi attack. Defense doesn't matter. Units in the #UNITS list with psi attacks cannot be reverse engineered. In fact they are treated as native units as far as having a lifecycle (and being boosted by Biology Labs etc.) instead of morale, even if they have normal armor and other special abilities like Hypnotic Trance.

 

[vyeh]

That is an interesting observation about lifecycle. If you use the design workshop and put psi weapon on a unit, does it use lifecycle or morale?

 

[chuft]

I fooled around with that and if I recall correctly it uses morale. In addition the unit is reverse engineerable and (obviously) you can work with it in the workshop since that is where you added that weapon. I think units created in the workshop are just regular units regardless of their weapon.

 

[vyeh]

I found out that the lifecycle of native life units are not affected by Morale. This has interesting implications because Children's Creche and Brood Pits "reverse" the effect of negative morale for native life units. If you want to continue this discussion, please post a thread at CGN. I would prefer to discuss bugs there, since that is the current focus of the CGN.

How did you see that units in the #units list responded to lifecycle rather than morale? (Did you make an SE change and note there was no change?)

 

[chuft]

I am not sure I understand what you are saying is a bug. I am just saying the unit I created in the #UNITS list with a psi attack had a "lifecycle" and not morale.

How did you see that units in the #units list responded to lifecycle rather than morale?

Several ways. First, the "Trained" ability had no effect. Second, the unit said "Hatchling" or whatever instead of "Green" when I built it. Third, it would appear as a "Boil" or whatever when I added lifecycle improvements to the base such as Biology Labs and Centauri Preserves. It gained no benefit from Naval Yards. It gained one lifecycle stage from Bioenhancement Centers.

 

[chuft]

I don't think native units should get a benefit/penalty from Morale. They get their benefit/penalty from Planet rating instead. That is how social engineering affects them.

 

[vyeh]

I don't think native units should get a benefit/penalty from Morale. They get their benefit/penalty from Planet rating instead. That is how social engineering affects them.

The point I am making is that children's creche and brood pits grant native life units a boost based on how negative your SE Morale rating is. That is a bug. Since the negative SE Morale rating does not affect native life.

So psi attack units build in a design workshop have morale, while psi attack units in the #UNITS list are treated like native life units?

That is an interesting observation.

 

[chuft]

I have never understood the children's creche thing. Do they give units a penalty when they are away from home? I seem to recall creches did strange things. No idea how brood pits work with regard to a bonus.

Yes, I just tested building a psi attack regular infantry unit in a saved game and it appeared as a Veteran, not a Mature Boil or whatever it is.