BOTM 24 Final Spoiler

mabraham · Dec 6, 2009

My space game reported earlier got seriously derailed when I let Izzy sneak-attack me, then counter-attacked successfully and then lost my stack.

I quit that one and played another one, where I did what I should have done all along, and wiped Izzy out like in my practice games. Was peaceful the rest of the game, apart from one sneak attack from Nappy, and landed space ship in 1958, after a not-very impressive late game. In retrospect I think Caste System was a mistake, and perhaps Bureaucracy with a pigs-corn-horse capital was also a mistake. I might retry using worker-boost initial civics.

culdeus · Dec 7, 2009

Did space people consider moving the capital to the floodplain/gold site?

I played at the higher level again to see what the differences were and attacked Napolean first from the west and then started routing reinforcements from the Bismark side. It became a bloodbath finally when Ham got to rifles about the time I knocked on his door. Nappy is actually a good vassal to have in your back pocket if you gift him all the good military techs. That worked out real well wiping peter and biz. Finally just pumping cannon/cav across the gap with drafted rifles overwhelmed ham for a 1900s replay win at the high level. I wonder what the regular level conquest time will be? It's always so much faster than I can dream of. Maybe 1820? Sooner?

mabraham · Dec 7, 2009

culdeus said:
Did space people consider moving the capital to the floodplain/gold site?

The desert gold is pretty much irrelevant - for most of the game you want to be working towns that return :food:

as well as comparable :commerce:

. My space game planned Oxford on the floodplains-corn site, ironworks further upstream near the stone, and the capital with corn-pig-horses (though I'm deeply skeptical about that choice!).

srad · Dec 8, 2009

mabraham said:
The desert gold is pretty much irrelevant - for most of the game you want to be working towns that return as well as comparable . My space game planned Oxford on the floodplains-corn site, ironworks further upstream near the stone, and the capital with corn-pig-horses (though I'm deeply skeptical about that choice!).

I doubt that an economy based on villages and towns would be a good choice for this game. Specialists (tech bulbing) and workshops (forge + factory +plant) for either science or money buildinG should do the job.
So my preferred capital site would have lots of food.

Jbourne · Dec 8, 2009

srad said:
I doubt that an economy based on villages and towns would be a good choice for this game. Specialists (tech bulbing) and workshops (forge + factory +plant) for either science or money buildinG should do the job.
So my preferred capital site would have lots of food.

Pure science capital with oxford should be running as many towns as possible since the capital commerce boost (50% from Buro) and Lib+Univ+oxford+Academy (200%) only applies to the commerce based reserch and not the hammer based research. Hammer boost comes from Forge+Fac+power (100%) plus 50% from cap.

For Example at 100% research:

a 4 commerce tile with 50% boost gives 6 commerce. Boost this by 200%= 12+6=18 flasks

a 4 hammer tile with 50% boost gives 6 hammers. Boost this by 100%= 6+6=12 flasks.

Of course having the iron works in the capital will equalize the two.

Now the difference is that, only rare tiles can get 6-7 hammers but all towns can potentially have 6-7 commerce. In this game Emancipation is not too far away if one chooses to take that path. 35 turns for a Town (?)

All other cities better off as Specialist Economy untill Factories show up. Then Hammers baby. No?

mabraham · Dec 8, 2009

srad said:
I doubt that an economy based on villages and towns would be a good choice for this game. Specialists (tech bulbing) and workshops (forge + factory +plant) for either science or money buildinG should do the job.
So my preferred capital site would have lots of food.

For a space game (the original context!) most of the :science:

comes towards the end, when you main cities are all capable of lib+uni+obs+lab (100%) or forge+factory+plant+power (100%).

A post-Biology farm and two post-Chemistry workshops on three non-river grassland tiles yields 68 (+2 with Caste System). With State Property you can just run three such workshops for 612 (+3 with CS) but you lose the effect of Free Market (trade route, availability of corporations)
Three such farms yields 12 which can support 3 more specialists returning 9/ and 9, assuming the population is large enough and you have enough suitable specialist slots from buildings or are running Caste System. Philosophical doubles the , Representation adds 9
Three non-river grassland towns yields 615 (+3 with Universal Suffrage and +6 with Free Speech)

Clearly the first approach is right for the Ironworks city, the second for the National Epic city and the third for the Oxford city. Only :commerce:

and

get the Bureaucracy benefit in the capital, so depending on terrain and improvements, first or third approach can be right. However for other cities, the third approach gives a better yield. The late-game :gp:

from non-Epic cities mostly get wasted because of the decelerating rate of :gp:

->

conversion through bulbing, so there must be a point at which it is inferior to continue running specialists in non-Epic cities, despite the lag time for town building.

The correct civics choices depends how many of these "flank" cities you have. Assuming no constraints from wars,

/

caps and finite workers, early on Rep+Bur+Caste+Merc+Pac is right for a mostly-specialist economy apart from the capital. However once the capital towns are mostly mature and some flank cities are growing, it becomes right to switch to US+FS+Eman (especially when

are limiting and other civs have Emancipation). Merc vs FM vs SP depends on the game situation, as does OR vs Pac vs FR.

For the final :hammers:

-rush it is worth considering mostly-pre-building workshops and watermills over towns and switching to Bur+Caste+SP if you aren't using corporations (and maybe Rep for the

), and Rep+Bur+Caste+FM if you are using corporations.

mabraham · Dec 9, 2009

Jbourne said:
Pure science capital with oxford should be running as many towns as possible since the capital commerce boost (50% from Buro) and Lib+Univ+oxford+Academy (200%) only applies to the commerce based reserch and not the hammer based research. Hammer boost comes from Forge+Fac+power (100%) plus 50% from cap.

The Bureaucracy benefit does apply to :hammers:

in the capital if you are building Research/Wealth/Culture.

The thing some people need to get clear is that the bureaucracy benefit is only ever indirectly good for research. Either the :hammers:

are boosted for building Research/Wealth, or the :commerce:

is boosted to be converted to :science:

via the slider. Only buildings and Free Religion multiply :science:

directly.

lroumen · Dec 9, 2009

I put my oxford in Isabella's Capital I think... or was that Wallstreet.
In any case. I did find this game pretty fun, but I didn't find it very challenging. Correction, I did not make it very challenging for myself. I first put isabella to rest and then teched to gain the upperhand. I was ahead in land and science and built a bunch of settlers for the smaller islands. It took me a while to get a good army going because working the land was not in my favour (I always build too few workers and specialise too crappy).
In any case, I was able to land a successful attack on the other continent and I think within around 20 turns I had them capitulate to me one by one. Some took a bit more time than others. and the Ottomans were annoying enough to vassalise to someone else for no apparent reason (probably because he thought the Russians (?) would be safe). Last one standing was Ghandi... I was hoping he would tech to nukes and pull the CIV1 quote on me, but that was too early game.

I finished with a Conquest in Jan,1961AD for 6896 base score and a final score of 22108.
Not very good because I teched too slowly and waited a bit too long before invading the continent, but mwa...

Jbourne · Dec 9, 2009

mabraham said:
The Bureaucracy benefit does apply to in the capital if you are building Research/Wealth/Culture.

We are in agreement then. The 50% at the end of the quote you use is talking about the hammer boost.

The hammer based economy I was reffering to is that hammers do not get the 200% boost from lib+uni+academy and oxford.

pollock · Dec 10, 2009

I was researching astronomy and preparing invasion in 1650. 2 settlers where being built to occupy coast for galleon building.
I changed to theocracy spread Confucianism and built a stables in the capital to go along with national epic and churned out knights for a while.
Settled Atlanta in north west near horses and wheat in 1695.
I was lucky and the barbs built a city called Bulgar pretty nicely on the coast near the dye and wheat. I captured this in 1708.
Suleiman attacked Bismarck.
Discovered two little islands off coast way to late. The edge had been there on the map for a while but didn't notice it :blush:

.
Was pretty short on workers around here so went on a worker binge . I think since capturing 3 from Isabella early i forgot about building them.
in 1720 used GE for Versailles in Boston in middle of continent. In 1744 finished gunpowder research then 2 GEs lightbulbed replaceable parts and started on rifling :scan:

1752 got invited into the war with Suleiman and Napoleon vs Bismarck graciously accepted and sent of 5 galleons with 5 knights 5 maceman 4 trebs and 1 longbow.
1760 was very lucky to pop another GE on like a 20% chance made the Taj Mahal and got some well needed civic changes. Took Munich a good beachhead on the same turn.
1772 took Berlin and after pressed end turn napoleon vassaled Bismarck i then screamed lots :mad:

Peaceful building ensured for a while. I released didn't cottage enough got lured into lax playing by difficulty

1790 got rifling :king:

change to nationhood and start drafting.around 1812 get involved in Napoleons war vs Russia right on schedule.
1820 while marching on 2 Russian cities napoleon vassals Russians . :mad:

I learned my lesson now. Amazed managed to stop self immediately declaring war on napoloen but control myself and position troops vs Napoleons German cities. Our cities are intermingled and confused together.
Declare war and take all German cities of napoleon and position vs his home cities . At this point start getting like 30 gold per city\colony maintenance so go to producing gold only. Ill soon get steel and am prepared to do 0% research and squash them with military. Building forbidden palace in center of continent in Rostov but taking ages.
1832 steel comes I'm just building cannons, courthouses and wealth.
1844 French resistance crumpling and out of economic slump back to serious research after forbidden palace sorted out economy. Start researching communism for state property in a golden age.
Around here nearly make an incredible mistake a single French knight rides tho an unroaded valley and i ignore thinking ill get it eventually with a rifleman but it gets in range of Rostov where forbidden palace that is saving me like 300 gold a turn is located. I look everywhere for units to save it but cant find any and Rostov is size 5 so cant draft there or anywhere else. I eventually find a Knight stationed 6 road squares away. So lucky :mischief:

1847 Bismarck defects

1850 Napoleon capitulates peter joins Suleiman as a vassal. at war with Suleiman
lose some little cities cause unprepared on Suleiman front. Soon columns are advancing on Istanbul tho

1859 Suleiman gives in pretty easily after Istanbul falls what a coward :lol:

Peter comes with him.
1861 Army is now 38 rifles 17 cannons and 8 trebs. Invade Ghandi .
1866 all over conquest victory yay

I think i made a few mistakes. Under settling continent even in the end there was a barb city that took in like 1850. Didn't put down enough cottages early. Really messed up letting napoleon vassal Bismarck and peter. Often play with vassals turned off or just go 1 on 1

The colonial expenses where truly massive at like 40 gold for a city in some cases :S. Should have gone for forbidden palace or even the palace in Berlin or Munich early. Anyho it was fun and i learned alot :king:

Grifftavian · Dec 12, 2009

How did you fare?
Time loss to Peter

He was pretty big in my game; vassalized Napoleon & Gandhi, and he took out Bismarck. He launched his spaceship, but it didn't arrive before 2050 AD. My own spaceship was about halfway built. Peter beat me to the UN as well, but he wasn't able to secure the diplomatic win either.

Did you see any use for your UU and/or UB?
Built several Navy SEALs, but they never saw any action. Built Malls in most of my large cities, they really helped out a lot, but were very crowed with all the holiday shopping :lol:

How did the late era start affect your overall strategy?
Initial Civics changes made on starting turn: Bureaucracy/Caste System/Mercantilism/Pacifism. Hoping to take advantage of Lincoln's Philosophical trait and have a lot of Great People. Other than that, I followed my usual strategy of expanding too slowly and not building enough military early in the game :rolleyes:

Isabella DOWed me shortly after 1650 AD and captured Philadelphia :eek:

I never did manage to recapture it :blush:

The heartless witch dismantled the Flyers Hockey Rink and replaced it with a Bull Fighting Arena :mischief:

After that war, she never attacked again. I had a Defensive Pact with Peter for a long time, which helped in that regard. Isabella did harass me with Spies for the duration of the game, sabotaged my building of Wall Street at least twice before I managed to get it built. I returned the favor, sent several spies to Philadelphia to spread my culture, hoping to flip the city back to me. It didn't work, but it caused the city to revolt several times. And since it already had my state religion when she captured it, I was able to steal a couple of Techs from Issy in Philadelphia.

Thanks for the game :goodjob:

I didn't have a successful outcome, but enjoyed the game none the less. I'd play another advanced start xOTM if there is one.

MarleysGh0st · Dec 12, 2009

Following some of the suggestions in the pre-game discussion, I also did an immediate revolt to Bureaucracy, Serfdom, Mercantilism and Pacifism. Washington was built on the horses in 1290, New York SE of the oasis in 1310. Perhaps it would have been better to scout a bit long and move further to all that lush land to the north?

An early GS built an academy in Washington in 1385. A GE was settled as a super-specialist in 1470. Perhaps I should have saved him to rush a wonder?

I decided to start an early war against Isabella, but I delayed long enough to capture a barb city north of her, in 1540. By the time I DOWed in 1605, Isabella has founded her third city, Seville. I took that in 1610, Madrid in 1675 and Barcelona in 1710. Another barb city would be captured in 1726. The barbs were no trouble to me in this game; with the high cost of settlers, I rather liked having them found cities for me! :mischief:

I was first to Liberalism in 1635, taking Economics and its free GM as my bonus. I was also first to circumnavigate, in 1776. By this time, Suleiman had already made Bismarck his vassal. Bismarck would later break free, in 1892.

A lot of peaceful expansion followed, highlighted by founding Mining Inc in 1870. Spreading that corporation really boosted my production! While I expanded, Bismarck had settled three cities on my continent and its neighboring islands, while Suleiman and Peter settled one each.

In 1912, Napoleon went to war against Bismarck. I joined him in 1916, took the three cities in my hemisphere and accepted his capitulation in 1921. While Suleiman occupied himself with a war against Gandhi in 1923, I then turned on Napoleon in 1927. By 1935, Gandhi has capitulated to Suleiman, while Napoleon has only one city left. At that point, Napoleon voluntarily becomes Suleiman's vassal, bringing Sully and Gandhi into the war against me. Fair enough...

Napoleon is gone in 1937. By 1943, I've taken four of Suleiman's cities and he capitulates to me. This event allows Gandhi to break free of Suleiman, but he immediately accepts my demand to capitulate. I'm now just under the land minimum for a domination victory, so I (along with my three vassals) declare war on Peter, but some of my captured French cities expand to give me the domination victory in 1944, before any Russian land can be added to the empire. Final score: 24,935 points.

Thanks for an interesting scenario. The Navy SEALs were quite useful during the invasion, although, after the first wave of transports, most of my reinforcements were airlifted. I think I only had time to build a couple malls, so they didn't make a significant difference.

Dynamic · Dec 13, 2009

culdeus said:
I wonder what the regular level conquest time will be? It's always so much faster than I can dream of. Maybe 1820? Sooner?

Contender Conquest should be sooner then 1800AD.

I've never played starts other then Ancient so I had no checkpoints for this game. I also wasn't sure about what type of victory I want...
The main idea was learning Rifling ASAP via GP. I thought to use GS for Education, Printing Press and Astro, GE for Gunpowder and Replaceable Parts, Liberalism for Rifling. Economics and Nationalism are option.
I founded Capital on the place and delayed 2d city till I finded a good place between Pigs, Corn and Iron. Switched to Bureaucracy, Serfdoom, Mercantilism and Pacifism. I started with producing several workers for fast map development. I didn't plan Academy and Oxford because of pure commerce Capital, bad place of Stone and a few techs I need to research.
I met Isabella 1 turn before converting to Judaism but forgot to open borders. After converting she didn't want OB and I didn't know about her army. I also didn't see her power graph so I had to build big enough army before starting war. I used Maces and Trebs but I really built too many of them...
After capturing Barcelona (very bad place) and Madrid (1515AD) I build 2 Settlers and captured 5 barbs cities. At 1650AD I had 9 cities (2 other later).
I forgot to build Caravel in Madrid so I build Galleon and met AI a little bit later 1650AD.
I researched and bulbed Education (1465AD), Printing Press (1540AD), Astronomy (1595AD), Replaceable Parts (1675AD), Gunpowder (1704) and... lost Liberalism (preresearched) by 2 turns...

So, I lost about 20 turns of science and victory... My own science was very poor and I self-reserched Rifling only in 1740AD. Of course, I lost Taj Mahal and GM from Economics...
Well, but game was still winnable

but not so fast as wished.

I switched to Slavery and Theocracy, pop-rashed Galleons and Rifles.
I traded for Nationalism and Chemistry, later Economics and Military Science.
I started war against Gandhi in 1764AD. I've prefered him bacause he usually very fast agrees to stay vassal and I got my first ally against others. Of course, it was longer way to him but my second wave was west direction aganst Bismark.
So my first Army took Gandhi then Suleiman and Peter simultaneously with second Army took Bismark. 4 AI stayed my Vassals so I just took several Napoleons cities and Settler-spammed Islands and other free places.
2 times I was in 1-2 turns from AI learn Military Science before to stay vassal - it should be a big problem for my rifles...
At the and I launche GA and on last turn converted to HR, Free Speech, Caste System and Pacifism. I wasn't precisely calculated tiles so I reached Domination 4 turns before I planned (many new cities didn't reach 150 culture) so it could be more optimal.
I won in 1816AD, but in case of Rifling via Liber it could be before 1800AD. Conquest is earlier then Domination so it should be before 1800AD too.

St0rm.Br1nger · Dec 13, 2009

How did you fare?
I really enjoyed this game!! Won a domination victory in 1979 - certainly not my best score for a dom vic. but I had never played an advanced start before and was kinda lollygagging around checking out how different things were.
As for my game, like a lot of others, I settled Washington on the horses, and NY on the pigs, iron, corn site. Went with HR, Buro, Caste (mistake!), Mercantil. and Pacif. for most of the game, then into warmonger civics and SP when I took over a bunch of cities on the other continent. I was sad to see Isabella go so soon (1740) and really liked how my game kinda turned into a cold war-esque scenario (me with vassal Suli vs. Peter with Ghandi, Nappy and Biz as vassals). I was also very interested to see how totally different the other games turned out and how everyone played. A most enjoyable experience!!

Did you see any use for your UU or UB?
I found the seals to be very effective, and used them to take over most of the coastal cities on the other continent. For me they also stayed viable till the end as the AIs never put up anything beyond infantry for defense.
As for the UU, I built a reasonable amount of malls where appropriate and they did help leverage Sids Sushi for even more growth power. I dont think I used them as much as I could have, and I would think that they could much more effective aiding a non-warmonger victory strat.

How did the late era start affect your overall strategy?
Once I knew the lay of the land, so to speak, I tried to get my navy and the seals up ASAP. I liked the pace of the game and enjoyed spending more time in the later eras, which I dont usually get to do. Seems I built less wonders, but dont know if this was a factor of the adv. start or just how this game turned out.

I had a lot of fun playing this game and reading the other write ups. Am very much looking forward to BOTM 25. Thanks again

jancarly · Dec 14, 2009

Space ship vic at 1978, nice date btw
low score of 12866, base 5348

How did you fare?
It went pretty well. Never had the feeling that AI came in my neighbourhood.
Killed Izzy in 1575AD and then went for expansion. Sharing techs with the AI to develop faster into the tech tree.

Did you see any use for your UU and/or UB?
Only at the end, when my vasal Germany got attacked. I send him some troops to protect him and to get rid of the war. I didn't tend to go for conquest or domination victory.

How did the late era start affect your overall strategy?
It was tougher than I thought it would be. Maybe I should have build more workers at the beginning but I prioritized research. It was my first late era start.
Nice challenge!!! thx

And as usual, I forgot to use corporations :crazyeye:

Just noticed it by reading this forum
oh well, you allways have to get the feeling that you can do better :lol:

Harbourboy · Dec 14, 2009

Domination victory in 2008 AD. Hooray!

I used Malls and Seals all over the place. I think every single one of my cities had a Mall and a Seal in it, but most of the hard yards were done by Modern Armour and Mobile Artillery.

Grifftavian · Dec 14, 2009

Harbourboy said:
Domination victory in 2008 AD. Hooray!

I used Malls and Seals all over the place. I think every single one of my cities had a Mall and a Seal in it, but most of the hard yards were done by Modern Armour and Mobile Artillery.

Very nice! Sounds like you solved your Isabella problem. Sad to say I never got off the home continent :blush:

Gosha190 · Dec 14, 2009

contender, conquest victory 1792.

Spoiler :

culdeus · Dec 14, 2009

I need to start using golden ages. They look...useful.

beestar · Dec 14, 2009

Contender save, conquest victory in 1924AD.

Played very sloppily at the beginning - it's an adjustment going back to Prince level. I REXed without any clear victory condition, beyond waiting for Isabella to develop her cities so that I could capture them. But both her cities and her territory were poorly improved, and her tech level was abysmal (maybe my REXing boxed her in a little too effectively). Screw it - go on the warpath and attack with knights and trebs.

The war with Izzy was really badly done, as usual I didn't bring enough forces to the table and it took many turns to finish off Spain despite her awful tech state and tiny army.

I think I got Astronomy from Liberalism to gear up for the intercontinental war.

(Pause for 3 weeks to finish SGOTM10 and play Dragon Age.)

Come back to it, vassalized the disliked and wimpy Gandhi with Muskets and Cannons (and soon Riflemen), vassalize Suleiman, vassalize Peter, vassalize Napoleon, vassalize Bismarck.

I went way too deep in the tech tree with Flight and Radio and Assembly Line (I vassalized India and the Ottoman Empire without crushing their empires, so they were getting late techs in about 10-12 turns, and we had a tech trading party).

I'm not sure pre-1850 is within my grasp, but it probably could have been a much better game if I had focused properly on conquest early on. Just got impatient and lazy ...

---

Oh, and every time I captured a city, I had this weird feeling of looking for the radioactive fallout cloud that should be there

BOTM 24 Final Spoiler

Deity

Emperor

Deity

King

Warlord

Deity

Deity

Warlord

Warlord

Warlord

Emperor

King

But not hurry

Chieftain

Chieftain

Deity

Emperor

King

Emperor

subdeity

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