BOTM 78 Final Spoiler

[kcd_swede]

[img=right]http://gotm.civfanatics.net/civ4games/images/botm78civ.jpg[/img]

BOTM 78 Final Spoiler

,

So how did your game after 1650AD go?

Did you identify a Wonder critical to your plans, and then get it?
Did the religion and diplomacy seem more difficult or less difficult with each civ having their own?
How did you like EPIC speed?
What did you think of the REN Era start?

What did you learn about Minor Civ behavior?

Did anybody bribe other civ(s) to war with Washington?


Tell everyone and discuss in this thread, subject to...

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[whb]

So I discovered that although Poly and Washington have an annoying 200% defence bonus, this doesn't apply to gunpowder units. So they both fell rather easily to about 3 suicide trebs followed up with some cuirassiers.

China went for a defensive pact with me earlyish, which then led to a permanent alliance. We're both safely ensconced on our island, so the defensive pact was never under realistic threat. And as our research rates were both up, this turned into a next-turn clickfest treading the motions towards a mid 20th century space victory. Mining Inc and Sud's sushi bringing in the coin in my Wall Street city (on the floodplains).

Except that it was late in the evening, and I was next turning a little too merrily and quickly, and Wang Kon snuck in a religious vote that it's quite possible I misclicked on because I have absolutely no idea who voted him a victory (everyone seemed to dislike him). Possible it was an accident of the vote calculations (if he grew in the mid-turn from not being able to vote himself in to voting himself in). Possible he just got someone to like him while I wasn't looking.

Anyway, I snatched an interesting defeat from the jaws of a dull but inevitable victory.

So, two monumental acts of stupidity and not paying attention on my part in this game. (After the earlier non-pacifism bungle.) I don't think I actually saved, so I'd probably have to replay the turn in order to submit, but I think I'm happy to let others pick up the ambulance trophy anyway.

 

[zbgayumn]

Well, I didn't really want to talk about it, but reading whb's story makes me think that it could have been worse.

At the beginning, I assumed that this would be a terrible game for Diplo because nobody would like each other. Then in early/mid-game it looked like there was an opportunity, so I beelined Mass Media and built the UN. However, I did a very poor job of running the numbers. I had Qin and Hammurabi as Bureaucracy Buddies, and Capac as my rival. Wang Kon was the pariah to almost everyone.

After the first vote, I realized that I was going to need a lot more than growth to secure a victory. I needed Hannibal. I tried to get the Fav Civic bonus with him too, but he wouldn't stay in Free Market. I bribed him into it twice and he just dropped it ASAP both times. I was despairing of a way to make it happen when Wang Kon DoW'd me. It was hilarious. He landed some Trebs and Knights to attack my Infantry. Anyway, I took the opportunity to bribe Hannibal into the war and build up relations. I sent a small invasion force back at WK, but all of a sudden he had Inf at home (why did he attack with his most useless units?). I took one city and gave him peace. During that period I had Hannibal up to +8, but he still abstained during the vote.

After that, the Diplo plan completely fell apart. Hammurabi surpassed Capac in score and became my new rival. Hammy and Hannibal didn't like each other, so I started getting negative points for trading with both of them. For a little while I resumed my war with WK and took 3 more cities. I was going to continue, but I concluded that even with all of WK's votes the UN wasn't going to work anymore. The Space race was already heating up, so I jumped in a little late in a last ditch effort to get a victory. I didn't even have factories in most of my cities because I had been trying to maximize population up until then. Some major spending happened while I was still building Apollo and then I put everyone to work building the ship.

BTW, it's pretty cruel to have a continent completely north of 30 deg. No Elevator for you!

Anyway, it was a 2012 space victory. I get the feeling there's a shield in my future.

 

[nocho]

I tried for culture and got that in Jan 1956 for an epicly low score of 9907. Epic won't have to do with that I guess, but Renaissance start possibly. I have no idea whether it's any good, I'll find out when jesusin posts his 19th century culture win, I guess.

Anyway, I think at least the way I planned it, it went fairly well. Maybe the plan was dubious though, dunno. The trickiest part for me with this setup was deciding on when to take SciMeth and obsoleting monasteries, but of course enabling important techs down the road like biology and then the radio wonders + Eiffel. Christianity was easily spread after capturing Washington with cannons. Then I had a couple of cities on both the Incan/Korean and Babylonian/Carthaginian land masses with the hope of getting some other religion spreads. I did get those spreads, but in new cities on my home continent. Hindu and Judaism where thus within spreading reach and ended up with my 3 LCs with the 4 "cathedrals" each for Islam/Christ/Hindu/Judaism. Hermitage in one city, RocknRoll in the second and the third with Broadway and to top it off I got Eiffel for a Broadcast tower in all three. So that was once +350% from buildings and twice +300%. FS obviously and rep+caste+merc for most of the game. Somewhere along the way dropped pacifism for FR, wondering if the experts (jesusin? ) have some guidelines when to take that change, if ever. The drop in GA generation is significant of course, but extra science (more important in Ren start I thought), culture and easier diplo (trading) was worth it, I reckoned.

Generated 14 GPs in the end, 8 GAs, 4 GEs (Sistine, double rushed SoL, Broadway) and 2 GSs (academy and Edu half-bulb). I only ran one Golden Age early on, missed out on Taj and as I postponed SciMeth a bit also missed free great people from Communism and Physics, HC had also beaten me to Economics earlier. I did get lib though and pondered for a while to take Astro or Econ, opting for the first thinking there was time still for Econ, but no.

Anyway, all in all it was an enjoyable experience.

 

[Mitchum]

I wanted a quick game this month since Jesusin did not take me up on my offer to go for an Espionage victory. I decided to try for a Religious victory instead. The initial plan was to run an engineer specialists (cities start with a free forge), pop a 100% GE around T45 and rush build the AP.

I rarely play advanced starts so I ran a few test games to see what the AI would do and AIs started popping their first Great People ~T18. They were running Caste System and a bunch of specialists. What scared me the most was that quite often a GE would spawn very early and the first thing said GE would build was the AP. So I set my sights on completing the AP manually before T18. I did NOT want to have to capture the AP (possibly on another continent) for the win.

So I chopped a second worker and then both workers chopped non-stop until I had the AP on T16 (movie played on T17)... and what do you know but a GE was born on T18. It's a good thing I ran my test. In fact, the first 4 or 5 great people that popped were GEs and they all rushed wonders such that almost all wonders were gone very early.

My second city was settled on a FP to SW and started on a caravel right away... actually 3 caravels. My capital pumped out Islamic missionaries.

I revolted out of Islam after the AP was built so as not to piss anyone off.

I got a scare on T2 when my explorer saw 2 longbows, 2 berserkers and a worker in the barb city to the east. I saw several warriors wandering around but I never saw the berserkers again even though I went looking for them with my LB around T50 so I assume that the barbs deleted the units???

I also found Washington to the west with my scouting LB on T16. He was far enough away that I wasn't overly worried about him.

I met Qin on T22 to the east. I immediately opened borders with him and gifted him my map for +4 trade relations. His favorite civic is Bureaucracy (which we were both running) for which he gives a max of +6 diplo. He also has a base attitude of +1 so he's easier than most AIs to get to Friendly. He gives a max of -3 for running different religions if he owns the holy city, so that wasn't bad. He was looking to be a good voting buddy.

On T23 I meet Hammy but I had no idea how or from where so one of his caravels must have scooted past mine IBT. His favorite civic is also Bureaucracy so I'm having visions of a three-way pact with Hammy and Qin. I OB immediately and gift him my map.

On T27 I meet Wang. I'm running Slavery but I can switch to Caste System soonish so I put him on a list of potential allies. I OB and gift him my map.

On T29, Islam finally spreads to my second city (I had built a road connecting my two cities several turns before).

On T30 I meet Hannibal. His favorite civic is Free Market. I don't intend to research that far so he's on my sh!t list. I OB with him on T32 and spread Islam to him. I'll be willing to close borders if anyone asks.

On T32 I meet HC. He's Wang's worst enemy. HC is a decent partner with Heredity Rule as his favorite civic so I have to pick between Wang and HC. Wang looks better since he only gives -2 for different religion (-3 if he's the holy city owner) while HC gives -3 (-4). I keep this option open for the moment. On T34, I OB with HC and spread Islam to him.

On T34 I switch to Heredity Rule (I was not running a Government civic initially since it would have cost an additional turn to revolt and I wanted the AP ASAP) to make HC happy and Caste System to make Wang happy. I still haven't chosen between these two yet...

The first AP resident vote is on T35 and I self-vote myself to victory.

Around this time, HC becomes the worst enemy of Hammy as well. So I now chose Wang over HC since both Wang and Hammy, two of my friends, don't like HC.

On T36, I spread Islam to Hammy. He only had 1 city up until this point. His first city must have been razed by the barbs??? In any event, I didn't want to spread Islam to his capital and preferred to spread it to his small, 2-pop city on the turn he settled it.

On T38, I get a GE from running an engineer non-stop in the capital (combined with the GPro points from the AP). I see that he can bulb Gunpowder so I switch from Astronomy to Gunpowder and bulb the GE. I finish off GP on T47. I'm tempted to gift it to Qin, Hammy and Wang to secure +4 fair trade since the map gifts only gave +4 for a short time until it started to decay but I decide to hold off. Instead, I DoW HC and then bribe Hammy and Wang into the war. Interestingly, Qin hasn't met anyone else yet so I can't bribe him into the war too.

EDIT: I forgot to mention that I had closed borders with HC when asked by either Hammy or Wang (can't remember which) several turns before learning Gunpowder. Neither Wang nor Hammy would declare war on HC because they would have "nothing to gain." HC wouldn't talk to me for closing borders so I couldn't tell him that his head would look good on the end of a pole. So I temporarily diverted an Islamic missionary that was intended for Hammy toward HC. I then marched the missionary up to HC's border and declared war on him by moving my SoD (consisting of the single missionary) into his territory. Using a missionary to declare war was definitely a first for me. Once I was at war with HC, both Wang and Hammy were willing to join in for the price of Gunpowder (and they gave me +4 Fair Trade in the deal too!!).

I settle another city to the SE by the wheat, clams and cow and spread Islam to it in order to bolster my vote count.

I pause when I see that Washington, the minor civ, is listed as a non-member on F8 Members tab. Do minor civs have to have Islam in a city for a Religious victory to be possible? I thought not but I build an extra settler/Islamic missionary pair with the intent of settling the city close to Washington, spreading Islam there and letting him capture it. As my settler and missionary are walking toward Washington I decide to test the minor civ/AP thing with an old SGOTM-18 test game. It turns out that minor civs do NOT need to have the AP religion for a Religious victory to be available. So I settle the city by the horses and keep it for the extra votes.

With 0 turns until the next vote, I convert to Islam which pisses off Qin, Hammy and Wang a bit (-2 each). Wang had stopped the war with HC several turns before so I'm at:

+12 Friendly from Hammy - I'll get his vote
+9 Pleased from Wang - I might get his vote
+6 Pleased from Qin - I likely won't get his vote but I can still gift him Gunpowder for +3 Fair Trade (it's only at +1 right now).

I hit end turn before I gift Qin GP. I call for the Religious Victory vote and vote for myself; the only other option is Abstain... whoever that is? I then gift GP to Qin. I'm not sure if I'll get credit for this +3 Fair Trade since I give it to him after I already called the vote.

I have 36 votes and I need 39 so I need at least two of the AIs to vote for me. In the end, both Hammy and Wang vote for me while Qin votes for Abstain. I get 40 out of 52 votes and win with 1 vote to spare.

Results: Diplomatic (Religious) Victory in 1625 AD (T68) after wasting spending 3:28 of play time with a monster score of 3956. I was one step up from the bottom (Dan Quayle) but Sid doesn't know what he's talking about!!

Thanks for the fun game, KCD, even though I largely ignored the pre-planted barbs and the minor civ.

 

[kcd_swede]

Good job, Mitchum. But why did you take a diplo hit with 0 turns to the vote? Can't you vote with all the + diplo for same religion, and then after placing your vote (waiting for the results to be counted) change to the AP religion in order to double your vote count?

The AI cast their vote before you change, so you don't lose any diplo. The vote isn't counted until after the change, so you get double for having AP religion.

Or maybe I just did not understand what you were saying. It sounds like you understand the ins-and-outs of AP victory, so you probably know all that I'm sure.

 

[Mitchum]

But why did you take a diplo hit with 0 turns to the vote? Can't you vote with all the + diplo for same religion, and then after placing your vote (waiting for the results to be counted) change to the AP religion in order to double your vote count?

No. I was running no state religion so as not to piss off my voting buddies since they were each running their own religions. Unless you're running the AP religion, the option for a Religious Victory as a vote will never come up. In fact, not voting options come up if you're not running the AP religion.

I switched to Islam (the pre-game thread said Taoism, by the way) early in the game because you have to be running a religion to build the AP. As soon as the AP was completed and before I met anyone, I switched to no state religion. The vote for the the AP Resident came up on a periodic cycle but no actual vote proposals came up since I wasn't running the AP religion. Every 15 turns or so, another vote for the AP Resident would come up but again, until I actually switched to the AP religion, no actual vote proposals would show up.

I've read that you are likely to get an AI to vote for you if they are at +8 or higher (not confirmed by me) so I had to get them to +10 or higher so that I could afford the -2 diplo hit by running a different religion. I couldn't get to +10 or higher until a) the shared civics bonus got high enough, b) I had a tech to gift them for +4 fair trade (a gift city would have worked too, I suppose) and c) I had a way to get some shared war plus mods (I needed a tech for bribing purposes for this).

Once I had my voting block secure by having my three voting buddies up to +10 or higher, I waited for the first turn when a proposal would be possible (i.e. Turns until next Vote: 0 showed up on the F8 Members tab) and I made the switch which caused an immediate -2 diplo hit with everyone.

The AI cast their vote before you change, so you don't lose any diplo. The vote isn't counted until after the change, so you get double for having AP religion.

That's what I thought too but I just ran a test that suggests otherwise. If you recall, I forgot to gift Gunpowder to Qin so he was only at +6 when I called for the vote and cast my own vote. Before I ended the turn but after I voted, I gifted Qin GP and he went to +9. So I thought that he would vote for me but he didn't.

I just replayed the turn I switched to Islam. This time, I gifted GP to Qin before I ended the turn (this is what I had planned to do but forgot) and he went to +11 after the gift and then dropped to +9 after I switched to Islam. On the next turn I called for the vote and voted for myself. This time, Qin voted for me. In both cases, he was at +9 on the turn he cast his vote but apparently the AI's attitude at the point you actually call the vote is what matters, not the AI's attitude on the turn you actually vote.

It sounds like you understand the ins-and-outs of AP victory, so you probably know all that I'm sure.

Actually, I don't know the ins and outs of the AP although I've learned a bit about some of it from SGOTMs. This was actually my first Religious victory ever but I think this game was set up for an easy victory for several reasons:

1. Every AI had his own religion so there was no fear of them switching to the AP religion themselves which would cause a potential voting buddy to all of a sudden become your opponent. Plus his votes would count double so you'd need even more votes from yourself and other AIs.

2. All AIs were reachable without any additional teching via caravels.

3. We already knew Theology so we could start building the AP from the start... but so could the AI so it was a bit of a race.

4. Only one single tech had to be learned (any tech really) so that it could be used to get +4 fair trade and/or to get some wars started.

 

[bcool]

I got a 1932 AD space win with the challenger save. The challenger save might have been easier to get a faster finish date with, since the AI developed itself a bit faster before being conquered.

I wasted 2 medieval armies trying to take out Washington, almost quit when I thought I got a lot of bad luck on the 2nd attempt.

I got lucky with the barbarian city with 200% defense so I suppose it wasn't as bad as it could have been.

I lost the liberalism race, but conquered most of the world easily enough with drafted rifles.

I didn't get the right great people for corporations (or I wasted the right great people for other things) and so I went with a state property end game. With so many off continent cities and the compressed time of a late start game, perhaps the state property route is better than the corporate route. Would be interesting to see if someone went space with corporations.

 

[astre]

1858 domination with 27 kpoints

razed wash and china with cuir,
razed HC, korea then caped hanibal on the last turn with cav.
To be noticed that hanibal had riffling.

could have gone to conquest but i'm afraid someone will take the easy path: belined MT and astro then stop reseach and raze everything


I teched up to electricity/communism/ steam/bio. lot of bulb, 2 golden age.
Nice game

By the way, my PC died in the middle of the game, I'm glad i could change the whole thing without reinstalling windows

impressive game of mitchum. Its gameplan was very good and you succed to apply it in a the best way possible it seems.

 

[da_Vinci]

"Stop! If you are participating in BOTM 77, then you MUST NOT read this thread ..." I went a little overkill and waited until I submitted BOTM 78

I had Qin and Hammurabi as Bureaucracy Buddies, and Capac as my rival. Wang Kon was the pariah to almost everyone.

After the first vote, I realized that I was going to need a lot more than growth to secure a victory.

It seems my games approximate zbgayumn more often than not lately: all of the above apply to my game.

Played first half in a rush weeks ago with no notes, so no idea what I did (and no time now to go back and search the replay or the autolog to dig it out).

Stayed out of religion and had everyone liking me but Korea. When it was clear that Capac would be the voting rival, worked on everyone else.

I had to settle every inch of my continent to keep everyone else from trying to move in (I was trying to be peaceful for a change). Took out Washington, but no aggression against any other civs this game (just some active defense). I razed the barb city after cannons, and settled three cities in that space, all with seafood (or maybe two with seafood and one with cows?).

Hannibal was the problem child: damn fool won't use his own favorite civic! He'd happily take 1000 gold to dabble in it for five turns and then jump back to state property. He was still abstaining at +8 pleased.

Got a shared war vs Korea (I never sent troops, just sank some invading Korean sail with destroyers). I had the great idea to vote up free market as a global civic ... then discovered you can't globalize that one. So I had to time the bribe into free market to 3 turns left before vote, so he could not jump out for five turns.

Once that locked him in, I got the Diplo win in Jan 1964. Had Hammy, Qin, and Han'Bal voting for me each at friendly +11 or +12. Score is some pathetic low 10K something, good for a Nelson Mandella ranking from Sid.

It could easily have gone south on the relations, as it did for zb ... lucky for me it all held together long enough for the votes to come in.

dV

 

[Jastrow]

With so many off continent cities and the compressed time of a late start game, perhaps the state property route is better than the corporate route. Would be interesting to see if someone went space with corporations.

I was wondering the same, but choose the corperation path... I suspect it is the correct choice, tho I dont think I executed it very well. I finished in 1934, but only took out Washington and a single AI. Had I taken one more AI out I probably would have done better, but I struggles with my warring, and never got around to it....

I did get to over 5000 beakers per turn (before prerequisite bonus), and with better great person management, even with thee warring I did, I am sure I could have shaved 3 or 4 turns out. Having said that, I got VERY lucky with getting the correct gp all game long, so with only normal luck on that front, I probably would have lost those turns back.

 

[enKage]

I got extremely late 1826 religious victory with Islam founded + possible pacifism and merchantilism from the very first turn and forge in cap, AP is a good move and comes very early. I did not focus on AP victory from the very beginning so the date is late

 

[Noble Zarkon]

BTW, it's pretty cruel to have a continent completely north of 30 deg. No Elevator for you!

I thought it had been conclusively proven that going for the Space Elevator actually delays your Space Race victory?

 

[traius]

It does if you were focusing on space from the start. I'm guessing that if you tried to suddenly switch to space you might be able to shave a few turns off though. But far from expert on that, as all my victories are dom/conquest.

 

[Noble Zarkon]

It does if you were focusing on space from the start. I'm guessing that if you tried to suddenly switch to space you might be able to shave a few turns off though. But far from expert on that, as all my victories are dom/conquest.

Yeah that's a fair point!

 

[Nicol.Bolas]

so i just went for a domination win..... took me 25 hours...

used musketman to take polyneasian and americans.
used rifleman and infantry to take korea (he was runaway with score)
china declared me but never attacked me.

after taking inca with tanks, I attacked babylon for the rest of the score. The game saw some modern era warfare, tactical nukes and icbms.
if I werent messing around with modern weapons, I could have finished some 30-50 turns earlier then 1999.

modern era warfare is so well thought out in this game, too bad it doesnt see much play.
if I knew people had failed attempts at diplomatic win, I would have done a nuclear diplomacy win. (you nuke everyone back to medieval era, destroy their population then they capitulate and vote you + they have almost no votes due to no population)


So how did your game after 1650AD go?

Did you identify a Wonder critical to your plans, and then get it?
no... I ussually ignore wonders. I rushed spiral minaret

Did the religion and diplomacy seem more difficult or less difficult with each civ having their own?
I found it more natural... since everyone was hating everyone else for religion, other factors were important (trading, warring)

How did you like EPIC speed?
What did you think of the REN Era start?
I liked this game a lot. I felt in a hurry since start... but Ialways feel that way.

What did you learn about Minor Civ behavior?
Did anybody bribe other civ(s) to war with Washington?
- nothing,
- no, he was gone before I met anyone else

 

[Sleepless]

Well had to rush to get this finished in time still being GMT gave me a bit extra time.

Made a few mistakes earlyish. Forgot to change civics. Went for totally the wrong tech path. I should have gone straight for Astro as it would have been much easier to chain capitulate the AI. Instead I went Nat (at least I built the taj) with the idea to double bulb Edu and tech Lib for Mil Trad. Well that went out of the window when I realised a GS would basically tech Edu on his own and was well beaten to Lib.

At least I was aware trebs wouldn't dent the defences in Washington and the barb city from a previous GOTM. Of course I wasn't aware Washington had that much defence till my trebs nearly got there..

So once I managed to tech Mil TRad/Gunpowder/Astro (with the help of a couple of trade missions). The Ai fell reasonably easy Wash - HC - WK - Ham - Han - and finally Qin. Giving me a conquest win in 1896.

Thanks for the game KCD an interesting scenario..

 

[timmy827]

Another last minute finisher. I avoided the 1650 thread because I did nothing with early caravels and thought I might unfairly learn who the other AIs were, had only been discovered by 1 or 2 of them I think at 1650.

Culture in 1933. Legends beside the capital were just west (cows/FP/rice/marble) and further west (wheat/cows/spices). I did screw up and wait a couple turns to change civics, which may have cost me Sistine; the early GE went for Notre Dame instead

I mostly teched towards Democracy and was able to trade for Edu and Liberalism eventually. Washington I brute forced with catapults and non gunpowder, lost something like 18 units and captured it on my last attacker Barb city I planned to eventually flip with my great person farm (wheat/2x clams SE of start) but came very late.

Did tech or trade to astro, did some 'fishing cities' on the edges of other continents. (fishing for faiths, of course) Got one lucky Hindu spread to my home continent and one Tao to an overseas city for 4 religions. Far later than this first round, I put one city in the tundra on Qin's and he dumped a Confu missionary 2 turns later - argh, should have done that much sooner! I was disillusioned after the 3 H's seemed to have no missionary goal to my nearby cities. As it happened Hammy had cities with the two faiths I lack (Buddhism and his Judaism) and was weak for a long time; perhaps whipping an army before the AI's pulled away in tech would have given me more religions to play with at reasonable cost. Or maybe I should have just never conquered the city of Washington, gone for Christainity from his 2nd city, used that army against Hammy, and lived with a permanent choke of GW.

 

[Htadus]

Last minute game and got done 3 hrs before deadline.

I went for a conquest and got it in 1875 with about 20k points. Started warring with HA and trebs against America and ended with Calvary (though most were cuirass) and a few rifles. This game could have been done very much earlier had I chosen to not keep cities. At the end game I was bleeding about 150 gpt.

Killed off America for 2 cities,
Took 8 Chinese cities before he would give Rep Parts and vassal,
Hannibal was a very quick vassal after capturing 3 of his 6 cities,
I really messed up the war with Inca and had to get a CF and get my original force of 12 curras, very promoted by now, locked in his capital, since I misplaced my navy,
Hammy Vassal very easily after capturing just 2 of his 7 cities.
Dowed Korea with 2 cuirass and 1 immortal, and start taking cities at a snails pace,
Went after Inca and completely got rid of him since he choose to become Wong's vassal,
Finally vassaled Wong when he lost about 10 cities.

I made very many mistakes with troop movement due to speed play and the mistake of not whipping for a good long time period after starting wars.

 

[WastinTime]

In fact, not voting options come up if you're not running the AP religion.

I'm 100% sure this is not true.
The vote to win will come up as soon as you have spread to everyone. You can be running any religion (or no religion).

As you learned from your replay, it's the attitude they had BEFORE the vote that matters.

Votes are counted on the following turn! So you can grow/shrink cities and/or switch to the AP religion for double votes! (Warning: if you increase your votes so much that you have enough to self-vote the win, you will cancel the election. You can't win that way any more (was patched out.)