Branch Davidian 10th Anniversary

[onejayhawk]

He is the most notorious person I have ever met. He was in many ways not the type of person you want in the neighborhood. He was what people fear most among religious persons and gun enthusiasts. He is in many people's minds a martyr. He is Vernon Howell aka David Koresh.

It is the 10 anniversary of the BATF ill advised and horribly botched raid. Yet history has shown that Koresh and his followers paid the price for the gvernments bungling. I lay a lot of crimes at Bill Clinton's door, bu this is not one of them.

Ten years later I still have not made up my mind about what happened ten years ago and ten miles away.

J

 

[Pongui]

Last I saw, the place was a flaming heap of slag with a tank crawling over it.

That's what you get for declaring independence. Perfectly justified war.

 

[onejayhawk]

There is now a thriving little church on the site. Many of those who left in the first days attend it. Those that are not still in jail that is. 20 and 30 year sentances were the rule.

J

 

[Sultan Bhargash]

Just to be clear, the actual anniversary of the begining of the raid is February 28; it ended 51 days later, on the date that Timothy McVeigh would choose for his "counterstrike" against a federal government he had grown to hate as an enemy. And now I understand the recent FBI warning about "lone wolf" activity risk.

A good place for information about the raid is

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/waco/

I consider it be a dark day in American history, Janet Reno (who reminds me that Ashcroft has pretty scary predecessors, must be something about the job) authorizing the use of military strength overkill against an "egomaniac madman" "stockpiling weapons" but also surrounded by 22 children among more than 80 followers, American citizens cut down in a "pre-emptive strike". Her reason- "negotiations were at a stalemate", and like Saddam's citizens, "there was evidence the children were at risk from [Koresh himself]".

 

[JollyRoger]

A religious gun enthusiast. I think Ashcroft may have cut Koresh a break. As for the parallels you draw to current events, SB, I would have to say that nothing was apparently learned from this whole episode. The warmongers should go back and review the criticisms of Reno and the whole raid and apply them to their own misguided plans. A raid on a larger scale that will bring retaliation on a larger scale than McVeigh.

 

[Sultan Bhargash]

I like the new Flag, JR!!!

Well, as you may have noticed in Onejayhawk's first post, he finds Clinton blameless here (as we all know that groping your interns is worse than nerve gassing American children), and that was the mood of my republican forebears after the event as well (Waco and the missile strike at Sudan were the only two things that got Clinton approval from my matriline).

Koresh brought it on himself- what was he going to do with all of those weapons? And surely no one believed the claim that there was "nothing sexual" about him sleeping in bed with children.

Yes, it is irksome that our public is so easily swayed by the clever application of the term "Madman". Waco need not have ever happened, as the coming Iraqi conflagration needn't- it just requires new, better, different thinking from our same old leaders.

 

[CurtSibling]

Koresh was a barking mad corrupt cult leader.
The only god worshipped at Davidian was Koresh himself.

I see him as a western counterpart of Osama, given the proper scenario.

Manson, Koresh, Jones, Rasputin, they are all in the same league.

The evil demagogue league.

 

[West German]

Koresh was a total nut to be slepping with children. What an a******!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Zcylen]

that man Koresh was out of his mind, I think world is a better place without people like him

 

[JollyRoger]

Originally posted by Sultan Bhargash
Well, as you may have noticed in Onejayhawk's first post, he finds Clinton blameless here (as we all know that groping your interns is worse than nerve gassing American children), and that was the mood of my republican forebears after the event as well (Waco and the missile strike at Sudan were the only two things that got Clinton approval from my matriline).

Koresh brought it on himself- what was he going to do with all of those weapons? And surely no one believed the claim that there was "nothing sexual" about him sleeping in bed with children.

Well, a subclass of my Republican acqaintances (the gun nut faction) surely did not cut Clinton any slack for Waco. They distanced themselves from Koresh because of the issues involving children, but had no problem with the accumulation of weaponry and had a big problem with the BATF (or any Federal law enforcement authority) going in to handle the weapons situation. They felt that local law enforcement should have handled the situation by nabbing Koresh when he was outside of the compound and charging him with crimes involving children.

The answer to your question regarding what was Koresh going to do with all those weapons? Well their answer would be to defend the compound against invasion by the U.S. government. Of course, my gun nut buddies don't see the parallel to the current madman, but hey, he's covered by a series of UN resolutions, not the 2nd Amendment. Kind of funny hearing them cite the UN to back their views since they despise international organizations like the UN almost as much as they despised Clinton.

On a side note, this faction of gun-toting Republicans hated everything that Clinton (and her husband) did and only went anti-Republican when Clinton took a pro-Republican stance (with the ratification of NAFTA being the primary example).

 

[Flatlander Fox]

They were breaking the law, the powers that be used too much force, and then religious crazies got crazy.

No big deal, considering relgious crazies get crazy all the time, it's part of the job description.

I don't even feel bad for the people that resisted, then burnt to a crisp, considering they KNEW they were breaking the law.

There's plenty of nutso churches who never get messed with. When nutso churches mix guns with religious craziness though, THEN something needs to be done.

 

[Sultan Bhargash]

What about the children?

 

[napoleon526]

Originally posted by Sultan Bhargash
What about the children?

"Won't somebody PLEASE think of the children!"
-- Helen Lovejoy

 

[onejayhawk]

I do not hold Clinton blameless because I approve of his actions. I hold Clinto blameless for the same reason I hold Nixon blameless of the original break in--lack of knowledge or approval.

Just to clear BTW Janet Reno also did not approve of the action. She was not yet nominated. At this point 10 years ago it was the renowned Lonnie Guinier (sp?). As an aside, I consider her the first really major mistake of the Clinton years. At any rate the raid was initiated with an empty desk at the top of Justice. I'm not sure about Treasury, which owns BATF IIRC. Janet Reno may or may not have made the decision to use the tank to insert tear gas. If so it was in her first week or two in the position.

There is another thread about this last year. Here. SB is correct, Friday is the actual date, but in Waco at least it has been a news item since the Sunday paper this week. I will give you this much. If President Bush was attempting to do in Iraq what BATF attempted in Waco, I would appose him to the point of prison, and further if necessary.

J

 

[CurtSibling]

My view of David Koresh's mind and that of his ilk:

The growth of power-mania in an automaton like Koresh is to be expected. It is a well-studied evolution of megalomaniac thought.

When a latent desire for adulation trancends all logic and sensibility.
And is replaced with a demand for total control, decadent degredation of all will to his command.

Soon this decends into utter abuse of power and ego-lust.
A monster is borne from a cold arrogance and feeling of superior wisdom to his fellow man.
This kind of monster cares not for 'god' 'love' 'forgiveness' or 'faith'.
He co-opts the concept of god to his own power-hungry demand for supplication.

He preaches morals, but sleeps with his slaves at will.
He talks of clean minds, but drugs his slaves to maintain control.
He talks of love, but uses a fist of violence and champions fear.

He becomes totally out of touch and carries out any act that will demonstrate and enforce his control.
There is by this point, no love or brotherhood, only fear and a constant desire for unquestioning gain of power,
Soon after this comes a final realisation that only a consumation with armageddon can gain him and his slaves salvation.

This when the Jones, Manson or Koresh make their move against the outside, the 'pigs', 'schwienhunts' or scapegoats they have invented.

When the cult must meet a bloody fate head to head.

This usually ends up with the death and martyrdom of the leader and wholesale misfortune for the slaves, normally death.

Such is the price for following commands of a man who is consumed by his own ego-lust.
The events of the Branch Davidian attack were awful.

But better not to find out what Koresh had planned had he not been destroyed.

 

[onejayhawk]

Originally posted by CurtSibling
Such is the price for following commands of a man who is consumed by his own ego-lust.
The events of the Branch Davidian attack were awful.

But better not to find out what Koresh had planned had he not been destroyed.

Well and good. What I find disturbing is that he appears to have been attacked BECAUSE he was practicing an unpopular religious faith. If so, and the evidence is substantial though not unequivocal, then did not the BATF willfully violate a citizen's constitutional rights. Not only that, but the level of force brought to bear was out of proportion to the known situation. There is strong evidence that the members of the compound were fighting what they believed to be an armed invasion and not a lawful service of summons. I find the Bureau's reasoning and procedures at least as chilling as Koresh's. You make allusion to what he had planned. By all appearances, it was oon the scale of a new Camero.

J

 

[onejayhawk]

Originally posted by CurtSibling
Such is the price for following commands of a man who is consumed by his own ego-lust.
The events of the Branch Davidian attack were awful.

But better not to find out what Koresh had planned had he not been destroyed.

Well and good. What I find disturbing is that he appears to have been attacked BECAUSE he was practicing an unpopular religious faith. If so, and the evidence is substantial though not unequivocal, then did not the BATF willfully violate a citizen's constitutional rights. Not only that, but the level of force brought to bear was out of proportion to the known situation. There is strong evidence that the members of the compound were fighting what they believed to be an armed invasion and not a lawful service of summons. I find the Bureau's reasoning and procedures at least as chilling as Koresh's. You make allusion to what he had planned. By all appearances, it was on the scale of a new Camero.

Many people have accused President Bush of being a dictator in these forums. I see much more evidence of it here by a headless bureauocracy.

J

 

[SewerStarFish]

As an All-American, gun toting (you can have mine when you pry it from my cold dead hand) Democrat. I believe the wacko from Waco had every right to his guns and religious beliefs -- right up to the point where he broke the law.
Then when he shot at federal agents(who had warrants - you know to enforce the laws) he got what he deserved. The responsibility for the loss of life lies squarely on the shoulders of the criminal. I don't feel Reno should have waited as long as she did to enforce the law of the land.
And as for drawing a parallel with Iraq - the responsibility rests squarely with Hussein. Hiding in his house,surrounded by children. Bush should not have waited......

Just because innocent lives are imperiled does not relieve one of the responsibility to see justice done. Else the wicked will hide behind the children and render a far greater havoc

 

[Civddict]

who is he?

 

[joespaniel]

I guess in good conscience I must call off my weekend Bar-BQ plans.