Breeding dog back to wolf...

[Jafendel]

Inspired from the killer dog article...

There are quite a lot of different dog breeds with notable physical and mental differences. And they're all originally bred from dogs that was domesticated thousands of years agofrom wolfs. Now, can we take any dog breed, like chihuahua, and selectively breed it back to wolf?

I don't know why anyone would - or should - do that but this has bothered me as a scientific erm... problem

 

[Little Raven]

As I understand it, the current running theory (derived from genetic studies) is that dogs were not actually bred from wolves. Instead, both animals sprang from a common ancestor, but that ancestor was considerably farther back in history than originally thought.

So I think the answer to your question is no. Of course, you could still produce a pretty wolf-like dog if you had the inclination.

 

[carlosMM]

Well, theoretically, you cna bred any animal or plant into any other.

It's just that your chances are, well, after any rounding, ZERO!
Remember, it may only take one gene and the two individuals may look alike, act alike, smell alike - but be genetically incompatible for breeding. OOPS!

So, in all probability, dogs have too many differening genes by now. Sure, some races are so close you can crossbreed, to a certain extent. better chances with these. But, unless you sequenz a sufficiently large number of wolf genomes, and do the same for your re-breeds, and they fit - well, you'll get a dog looking like a wolf, no more.

 

[Jafendel]

Ok, so that project is doomed.. wonder what to ponder next

 

[Hundegesicht]

Well, theoretically, you cna bred any animal or plant into any other.

It's just that your chances are, well, after any rounding, ZERO!
Remember, it may only take one gene and the two individuals may look alike, act alike, smell alike - but be genetically incompatible for breeding. OOPS!

So, in all probability, dogs have too many differening genes by now. Sure, some races are so close you can crossbreed, to a certain extent. better chances with these. But, unless you sequenz a sufficiently large number of wolf genomes, and do the same for your re-breeds, and they fit - well, you'll get a dog looking like a wolf, no more.

Really? As far as I knew (up until this post), dogs and wolves were capable of producing offspring. Maybe the "half-wolf, half-husky" dogs you hear about don't really exist?

 

[Taliesin]

There is a successful half-wolf breed known as the Czechoslovakian wolf dog, created in the last fifty years by crossing dogs with Bavarian Alpine wolves.

 

[Hundegesicht]

Thanks, Taliesin! That was what I was thinking of... though do you know what breeds of dog they tried it with? I always assumed it was a Husky. They appear capable of reproducing with one another as well, which would indicate that the dogs and wolves used for this experiment are of the same species.

I'll wait and see what reason CarlosMM rejects this idea, though. I'm sure he has a good reason. (He also seems much better versed in Biology than I am)

 

[Taliesin]

The dogs used were German Shepherds (Alsatians). It appears that the hybrids are mostly bred with pure German Shepherds, with the introduction of a wolf now and then to keep the genepool sufficiently wolfish. Regardless, the hybrid can definitely mate with both dogs and wolves.

http://www.wolfdog.org/eng/

 

[carlosMM]

Really? As far as I knew (up until this post), dogs and wolves were capable of producing offspring. Maybe the "half-wolf, half-husky" dogs you hear about don't really exist?

read my post:

Sure, some races are so close you can crossbreed, to a certain extent.

but, do try crossing a wolf and a chihuahua

also, there's no telling (i.e. it is highly doubtfull) whether the cross-breeds would be able to survive 'in the wild'.

 

[Rik Meleet]

also, there's no telling (i.e. it is highly doubtfull) whether the cross-breeds would be able to survive 'in the wild'.

The "Natural selection" principle would point out that some would survive, most likely.

 

[Abaddon]

virtiually no- the problem is, selective breeding removed all the "wolfy" genes... unless you cross breed, there isnt a way to get them back

 

[carlosMM]

The "Natural selection" principle would point out that some would survive, most likely.

or, quite probably, be outcompeted by the natural species: wild dogs, wolves, coyotes, foxes.

 

[Elta]

or, quite probably, be outcompeted by the natural species: wild dogs, wolves, coyotes, foxes.

I don't remember what show or the exact name but on animal planet they had show where they rated the hunt sucsess rate of pack animals wolfs were 10%
lions 15%
wild african dogs 80% just thought I'd mention it
it seemsthose fox hunting dogs in the U.K. do even better
but there not technically wild

 

[carlosMM]

I don't remember what show or the exact name but on animal planet they had show where they rated the hunt sucsess rate of pack animals wolfs were 10%
lions 15%
wild african dogs 80% just thought I'd mention it
it seemsthose fox hunting dogs in the U.K. do even better
but there not technically wild

I did not see that one, but I know the series.

it is utter BUNK! Usually, they compare non-equal stuff, that is they compare apples and pear, and cucumber, for that matter.

Also, they take so narrow a view and limit their approach to usually idiotic criteria, that any data they give is usually useless.


It is, however, true, that lions are rarely successfull in their hunts. Usually, the intended prey gets away. OTOH, lions hunt for somewhat bigger prey than some more successfull other hunters, and they are tough enough to bully those others off their fresh prey...... So, lions are INCOMPARABLE as they employ a different STRATEGY!

 

[Gladi]

There is a successful half-wolf breed known as the Czechoslovakian wolf dog, created in the last fifty years by crossing dogs with Bavarian Alpine wolves.

Bright day
Actually the Czechoslovak Border Guard used Carpathian wolves.

 

[jonatas]

The "Natural selection" principle would point out that some would survive, most likely.

My guess is that in an area where you have a significant number of wolves living in the general vicinity of dogs, whether owned or strays running around, you would probably have a good chance of constantly having a small number of hybrids being produced. You can debate whether these would be advantaged or disadvantaged. But I think the possibility would be there for them to be consistently produced between the dog and wolve populations, whether or not they themselves were particularly adapted or better adapted to survival and carry on their lines.

Also, I believe that in Australia the native Dingo population in some areas actually does have a high percentage of domesticated dog now and there are fewer "pure" Dingos left, because of constant crossing in the wild. That's what I remember reading at least. Perhaps there the level of hybridization is so high that the wild dingos are being lost to some extent.

 

[carlosMM]

well, from what I have heard, read, and witnessed, at least in the US, wolves tend to KILL dogs entering their territory when they cannot avoid them!

an aside: in Yellowstone Park, over 15% of wolf mortality is accounted to wolves killing members of other bands / loners.

 

[jonatas]

well, from what I have heard, read, and witnessed, at least in the US, wolves tend to KILL dogs entering their territory when they cannot avoid them!

an aside: in Yellowstone Park, over 15% of wolf mortality is accounted to wolves killing members of other bands / loners.

I imagine you're right about the Wolves. I was just thinking if you have two large enough populations next to each other, you could have a small amount of first generation hybrids produced, not that those hybrids would in turn form a new creature entirely. Instead they either be killed or bred back into the wolves. But it's just my unqualified speculation

However in the case of Dingos, it does seem that the domesticated dogs overwhelmed the natives in some areas and actually crossed extensively, to the point where it is difficult to find pure Dingos.

 

[carlosMM]

I imagine you're right about the Wolves. I was just thinking if you have two large enough populations next to each other, you could have a small amount of first generation hybrids produced, not that those hybrids would in turn form a new creature entirely. Instead they either be killed or bred back into the wolves. But it's just my unqualified speculation

See, you start asuming neoghbouring populations - a few stray dogs wouldn't make a population. if you DO HAVE a population, then you may be right, or wrong - who knows?

Sometimes, extermely similar pops do not mix, sometimes, rather different-looking ones do.

However in the case of Dingos, it does seem that the domesticated dogs overwhelmed the natives in some areas and actually crossed extensively, to the point where it is difficult to find pure Dingos.

sure - after all, dingos probably stem from wild dogs very closely related to domestic dogs bred in many parts of SE and E Asia.

 

[jonatas]

See, you start asuming neoghbouring populations - a few stray dogs wouldn't make a population. if you DO HAVE a population, then you may be right, or wrong - who knows?

Sometimes, extermely similar pops do not mix, sometimes, rather different-looking ones do.

yeah, I'm just speculating

sure - after all, dingos probably stem from wild dogs very closely related to domestic dogs bred in many parts of SE and E Asia.

touché