Bring back same-culture improved relations

[D Wolf]

In Civ III civilizations which shared the same cultural background tended to be closer friends (relationships between the japanese and chinese got a boost, ditto with british-french relationships). I want this feature re-implemented into Civ IV because it just seems like a very sensible addition, and would add more realism. I play almost exclusively as Arabia (Spi, Pro) because I have a soul-deep admiration for their mysterious, religious, and martial culture (I love their mystical-sounding theme music so much as well ) and I love founding an early religion. I admit that everytime I'd found an Ottoman AI I'd longed for closer relations due to shared culture, mostly because I just love their similar (both Arabic) cultural backgrounds. Does anyone else think this might be a good thing to add?

N.B. It could also be made a toggleable feature as well, so players have the choice of turning it either on or off.

 

[CivFan87]

Yeah I remember this from Civ 3 and to be honest I don't miss it that much since it has since been sort of replaced by same-religion improved relations.

I think the reason it is no longer in is because the cultural groups are not balanced. There are way more European civs than any other cultural group. What happens when Arabia spawns in a game populated entirely by European civs? Everyone gangs up on Arabia as soon as contact is established?

 

[kefauver]

Two things:

1) Turks and Arabs are not the same thing.

2) Just because a civilization shares a region, and its people share certain traits, doesn't mean they enjoy close diplomatic relations. In fact, often the opposite is true. China and Japan actually hate each other, for example.

 

[D Wolf]

Yeah I remember this from Civ 3 and to be honest I don't miss it that much since it has since been sort of replaced by same-religion improved relations.

I think the reason it is no longer in is because the cultural groups are not balanced. There are way more European civs than any other cultural group. What happens when Arabia spawns in a game populated entirely by European civs? Everyone gangs up on Arabia as soon as contact is established?

Thats what would happen in real life though. Imagine that from the start our world only had 4 nations, 3 of them European: Britain, Netherlands, France and 1 of them Arabic (Arabia). Who's going to be the omega wolf here?

I understand the big mess it would make out of play balance though, although if this is such a problem maybe the game could be programmed to spawn the same or roughly the same amount of civilizations from each culture group per map spawn. I hope I'm not defending a hopeless cause here I seriously want to make this work if there's even the slightest hope for it, I miss it from Civ III

 

[D Wolf]

Two things:

1) Turks and Arabs are not the same thing.

My bad, I just sort of believed they were related I guess, since they both have a heavily Islam-influenced culture. O well I guess that's the end of that, we can't have a lone Arabia versus all the other culture groups

 

[Ringan]

Until after World War II the countries of Western Europe were at each others' throats. Historically, there were all kinds of conflicts between England and France and Spain, to say the least. I really don't think this change would make much historical sense.

 

[DWOLF]

D Wolf...are you serious...what are the chances?

 

[FitzRoySomerset]

In Civ III civilizations which shared the same cultural background tended to be closer friends (relationships between the japanese and chinese got a boost, ditto with british-french relationships).

As Kefauver mentioned, neighboring civs often hate one another. The English and the French have gotten along well for the past 150 years, but were constant rivals (when not outright enemies) during the centuries before.

And during the colonial age, the European powers exploited regional rivalries as a way of leveraging their own power and influence.

 

[Underdawg]

In Civ III civilizations which shared the same cultural background tended to be closer friends (relationships between the japanese and chinese got a boost, ditto with british-french relationships). I want this feature re-implemented into Civ IV because it just seems like a very sensible addition, and would add more realism. I play almost exclusively as Arabia (Spi, Pro) because I have a soul-deep admiration for their mysterious, religious, and martial culture (I love their mystical-sounding theme music so much as well ) and I love founding an early religion. I admit that everytime I'd found an Ottoman AI I'd longed for closer relations due to shared culture, mostly because I just love their similar (both Arabic) cultural backgrounds. Does anyone else think this might be a good thing to add?

N.B. It could also be made a toggleable feature as well, so players have the choice of turning it either on or off.

The feature in Civ 3 you speak of was the "Similar cultures start together", there was no diplo bonus, it made it so that European civs start together, american civs together, etc, etc.

 

[D Wolf]

Lol really? Ah well my bad, it's been a very long time since I played Civ III... Civ IV is just so much better in most areas. Btw Kefauver, the Wikipedia article "Arabic culture" states that Arabs and Turks share very similar cultures. Just thought I'd point that out

Btw the same article also mentions that Arabic music is largely melodic, rather than harmonic... can someone with some musical knowledge please explain what that means to me?

 

[Yzman]

Thats what would happen in real life though. Imagine that from the start our world only had 4 nations, 3 of them European: Britain, Netherlands, France and 1 of them Arabic (Arabia). Who's going to be the omega wolf here?

I understand the big mess it would make out of play balance though, although if this is such a problem maybe the game could be programmed to spawn the same or roughly the same amount of civilizations from each culture group per map spawn. I hope I'm not defending a hopeless cause here I seriously want to make this work if there's even the slightest hope for it, I miss it from Civ III

If that was real life, I guarantee that wouldn't happen because the same conditions that apply to this real world wouldn't apply to those conditions. With only 4 nations the nations would actually be more similar and not have as big of differences as they do when we have hundreds are nations which are very far apart.

 

[Yzman]

And actually, I believe the starting location thing is still in affect in this game. I still seem to start by people that are close to my actual culture.

 

[anonymous4402]

I don't think there is one. In my game the Khmer and Chinese; the Zulu and Ethiopians; and the Romans, Greeks, and Byzantines are all on different continents from each other. Of course I'd put Ethiopia closer culturally to Arabia and Greece but let's be realistic if cultural ties are put in place they'll lump Mali, Ethiopia, and Zulu with each other despite them being on three separate corners of the continent and not having any contact with each other at all throughout their history.

Still, I'd like to have at least the option to have similar-culture civs start next to each other.

 

[Psyringe]

The feature in Civ 3 you speak of was the "Similar cultures start together", there was no diplo bonus, it made it so that European civs start together, american civs together, etc, etc.

I'm pretty sure that civs of the same culture group had a +1 diplomacy modifier in Civ3.

That said, I'm glad that it's gone. Contrary to what the OP says, I think this feature was very unrealistic. For one, as has been said, neighbouring nations often hated each other. The French and Germans considered each other their arch-enemy for centuries. And second, I fail to see why it would be realistic that in a game that places civilizations randomly on a randomly generated map, Civ A from continent A were to like Civ B from remote continent B any better just because in some different universe they share they same culture group.

Imho, the "same culture" bonus of Civ3 has successfully been superseded by the religion system. The religion system serves the same purpose that the Civ3 modifier did (i.e., building blocks of nations who like each other better than others), but it does so much better, and in a way that's much more logical (as emergent from gameplay instead of being hardcoded with no basis in it).

 

[kefauver]

Btw Kefauver, the Wikipedia article "Arabic culture" states that Arabs and Turks share very similar cultures. Just thought I'd point that out

They are similar just as modern persians have very similar culture to arabs as well, mostly due to Islam. That doesn't mean they can be referred to as Arabic as you did in the OP.

 

[DilithiumDad]

This would reduce the tendencey of neighboring AI's to attack each other, which would not be desirable.

 

[Lurking Liu]

I can think of one huge reason this isn't in, and I'm really surprised no one has mentioned it--If France and England (in the game) are separated by two continents and a vast ocean, then why should they have a bonus because France and England (in reality) are only separated by a short channel?

In other words, if Germany can be surrounded by Japan, Mongolia, and The Aztecs, why would it share cultures with The Holy Roman Empire when it's as far away as real-life China?

 

[D Wolf]

Easy. When they DO meet, they would acquaintance with each other faster and better due to cultural similarities. Although by now I do agree with what most people have posted and that the culture group system just wouldn't work within Civ 4

 

[Tennyson]

Civilizations with similar civics will already like each other more. That's a much less arbitrary standard than racial affinity.

 

[Yzman]

Easy. When they DO meet, they would acquaintance with each other faster and better due to cultural similarities. Although by now I do agree with what most people have posted and that the culture group system just wouldn't work within Civ 4

I think you are missing the point. In the game, why would they have cultural similarities? France and England on two different continents would be like China and The USA in real life. Real life positions should not have a bearing on relations in the game when it has no bearing on their positions in the game.