Bringing the old Jotnar back

[far_wanderer]

I'm beginning work on a module to bring back the old design of the Jotnar - small cities, few units, etc. I want to be clear that I am not opposed to the new changes that have been made, I simply feel that they are not in keeping with the original theme of the Jotnar and I want those guys back too. In the hopes that I am not alone in that sentiment, I'm starting this module.
To begin with, there is one very important question: should I add a civ or split a civ?
Adding a civ will simply mean making a second Jotnar civilization and undoing many of the more recent changes. Splitting a civ would mean also modifying the current version of the Jotnar to accentuate the differences between them and the traditional Jotnar. My preference is to split the Jotnar, but merely adding the old ones back would be quicker and simpler, so I'm interested in feedback.
It should also be noted that I am a slow modder, so anyone who wants to help or even take charge of the project is quite welcome to.

For clarity, here is a basic draft of what I envision in a split:

Spoiler :

Jotnar Empire - These are the current giants. They live in spacious castles staffed by hundreds of "little folk" slaves. They do not respect the smaller races, and launch frequent raids on them. A sense of racial superiority runs strong through the Imperialist culture, and all those who are not giant are, at best, tools.

Jotnar Traditionalists - The Traditionalists are proud and noble society living in the outskirts of the known world. They consist of giants and also other large mythic creatures, including the Trolls. They respect the smaller races, but mourn the loss of the wild places and seek to teach their new neighbors how to slow down and enjoy things as they are, without rushing out to civilize everything. Some members of the smaller races have been won over, and live in the safety of the giant villages.

Unit breakdown:
Both civs share the current Melee, Archery, and Arcane line. The Imperialists keep the Divine line, and also the longboat-using raider giants who are rebalanced slightly to make up the Recon line. They also gain access to many of the standard lower-tier units as Thralls that are directly buildable and cheaper but weaker than their normal counterparts. The Traditionalists have the troll Recon line and use thralls (the voluntary kind, not the slaves that the imperialists use) as Divine units. Their units are in general more mobile and slightly stronger than the Imperialists, but they have much weaker options for buildable units.

Other differences:
Traditionalists have one-tile-radius cities, but better yields from their terrain. Imperialists keep the current three-tile cities, but replace the increased food requirements with happiness and health problems.

 

[Valkrionn]

I'm beginning work on a module to bring back the old design of the Jotnar - small cities, few units, etc. I want to be clear that I am not opposed to the new changes that have been made, I simply feel that they are not in keeping with the original theme of the Jotnar and I want those guys back too. In the hopes that I am not alone in that sentiment, I'm starting this module.
To begin with, there is one very important question: should I add a civ or split a civ?
Adding a civ will simply mean making a second Jotnar civilization and undoing many of the more recent changes. Splitting a civ would mean also modifying the current version of the Jotnar to accentuate the differences between them and the traditional Jotnar. My preference is to split the Jotnar, but merely adding the old ones back would be quicker and simpler, so I'm interested in feedback.
It should also be noted that I am a slow modder, so anyone who wants to help or even take charge of the project is quite welcome to.

For clarity, here is a basic draft of what I envision in a split:

Spoiler :

Jotnar Empire - These are the current giants. They live in spacious castles staffed by hundreds of "little folk" slaves. They do not respect the smaller races, and launch frequent raids on them. A sense of racial superiority runs strong through the Imperialist culture, and all those who are not giant are, at best, tools.

Jotnar Traditionalists - The Traditionalists are proud and noble society living in the outskirts of the known world. They consist of giants and also other large mythic creatures, including the Trolls. They respect the smaller races, but mourn the loss of the wild places and seek to teach their new neighbors how to slow down and enjoy things as they are, without rushing out to civilize everything. Some members of the smaller races have been won over, and live in the safety of the giant villages.

Unit breakdown:
Both civs share the current Melee, Archery, and Arcane line. The Imperialists keep the Divine line, and also the longboat-using raider giants who are rebalanced slightly to make up the Recon line. They also gain access to many of the standard lower-tier units as Thralls that are directly buildable and cheaper but weaker than their normal counterparts. The Traditionalists have the troll Recon line and use thralls (the voluntary kind, not the slaves that the imperialists use) as Divine units. Their units are in general more mobile and slightly stronger than the Imperialists, but they have much weaker options for buildable units.

Other differences:
Traditionalists have one-tile-radius cities, but better yields from their terrain. Imperialists keep the current three-tile cities, but replace the increased food requirements with happiness and health problems.

One small point you might want to take into consideration for the Trolls: They are literally half-breed giants, in the new setup. Slavers of that magnitude typically took the slaves to bed; Trolls are the result. Half Giant, half Greenskin (Orc, Goblin, whatever).

Seeing that, I think trolls belong in both groups. There are always those few who would accept their bastard offspring, so at least the one unit would be in the Empire. I could see more of them running to the Traditionalists, of course, where they'd be better accepted.

Really, the 3-tier city vs 1-tier city change was made in order to keep their population down (Increased food requirement), while still limiting city sprawl.

I do have one suggestion... If you split them, give the Traditionalists a civtrait carrying a CityPopCap tag. This way, their population won't grow over that limit... But you can add to the limit via techs and buildings, allowing for larger cities with some investment. I think a few expensive buildings would be good for it.

 

[far_wanderer]

One small point you might want to take into consideration for the Trolls: They are literally half-breed giants, in the new setup. Slavers of that magnitude typically took the slaves to bed; Trolls are the result. Half Giant, half Greenskin (Orc, Goblin, whatever).

I don't want to think about how that would work

Seeing that, I think trolls belong in both groups. There are always those few who would accept their bastard offspring, so at least the one unit would be in the Empire. I could see more of them running to the Traditionalists, of course, where they'd be better accepted.

Taking that into account, what I'll do is let Thralls that survive for a few levels "upgrade" through a promotion to be Trolls.

Really, the 3-tier city vs 1-tier city change was made in order to keep their population down (Increased food requirement), while still limiting city sprawl.
I do have one suggestion... If you split them, give the Traditionalists a civtrait carrying a CityPopCap tag. This way, their population won't grow over that limit... But you can add to the limit via techs and buildings, allowing for larger cities with some investment. I think a few expensive buildings would be good for it.

I actually don't like arbitrary population caps - I figure if they have a city location that can grow bigger on just 8 tiles, good for them. What I do plan on doing is limiting the number of cities, and reducing total population that way. I'm not sure yet if that will be a hard cap or maintenance-based.

 

[Valkrionn]

I don't want to think about how that would work
Taking that into account, what I'll do is let Thralls that survive for a few levels "upgrade" through a promotion to be Trolls.

That works. Lets you get a few as the Empire, while you'd have more as Traditionalists.

Also, the rewritten background for Trolls actually has a purpose behind it. It's not just in there for a disgusting factor.

I actually don't like arbitrary population caps - I figure if they have a city location that can grow bigger on just 8 tiles, good for them. What I do plan on doing is limiting the number of cities, and reducing total population that way. I'm not sure yet if that will be a hard cap or maintenance-based.

I don't like hard caps that you can't do anything about either. I don't mind them when there's a way to raise it though, which that system would have.

 

[Vermicious Knid]

A thought...you could make the Traditionalist/enlightened Giants more Roman in feel. Great construction projects, fairly enlightened attitude towards lesser beings, cities that beings of other races willingly travel to for the culture/education, etc... The Old Norse and Romans were kicking around in roughly the same historical period...shouldn't be too jarring. Perhaps giving my angry Jots more of a flavour push for cold climates would help emphasize the split. A one-time ritual that creates a large swath of forested tundra would accomplish that nicely....

Your happy jots could actually use the Wall of the Covenant, search for lost children ritual (which I'm fixing to excise from my version), could have their birth rate linked to the AC, etc... Could use the old thrall militia art, the Titan art, and the Cyklops art. I'd actually avoid using ANY of the norse-themed Jotnar art/names...doesn't fit the society you are wanting to portray. The Norse weren't nice. At all. What would work well is upscaled historical greek/roman art...lots of that kicking around the forums, some of it very nice..

As for trolls...directly building trolls is a pillar of my angry jot build, so that isn't likely to change. Perhaps your happy Jots could have happy trolls without the revolt chance? Reformed Ogres? Friendly treants?

As for a name...Olympians? Titans?

 

[far_wanderer]

A thought...you could make the Traditionalist/enlightened Giants more Roman in feel. Great construction projects, fairly enlightened attitude towards lesser beings, cities that beings of other races willingly travel to for the culture/education, etc... The Old Norse and Romans were kicking around in roughly the same historical period...shouldn't be too jarring. Perhaps giving my angry Jots more of a flavour push for cold climates would help emphasize the split. A one-time ritual that creates a large swath of forested tundra would accomplish that nicely....

Your happy jots could actually use the Wall of the Covenant, search for lost children ritual (which I'm fixing to excise from my version), could have their birth rate linked to the AC, etc... Could use the old thrall militia art, the Titan art, and the Cyklops art. I'd actually avoid using ANY of the norse-themed Jotnar art/names...doesn't fit the society you are wanting to portray. The Norse weren't nice. At all. What would work well is upscaled historical greek/roman art...lots of that kicking around the forums, some of it very nice..

As for trolls...directly building trolls is a pillar of my angry jot build, so that isn't likely to change. Perhaps your happy Jots could have happy trolls without the revolt chance? Reformed Ogres? Friendly treants?

As for a name...Olympians? Titans?

I'd like to avoid a Roman feel - they were also all about the huge empires, which I don't want. Titans as a unit will be coming back, though. Actually, now that I think about it, I may make their hero be the last Titan.
I'm okay with retaining a Norse feel, having two entirely separate races of giants adds a lot of lore complexity. I don't want any confusion over the concept that both civs are the same giants. These are also not Norse giants suddenly transported to Erebus, they are Erebus giants. So I'm okay with a few changes, much the same way the Calabim are not "standard" vampires.

Regarding the trolls, my intent is to replace them for the angry Jotnar with better thralls.

I like bringing in Ogres, I hadn't considered them until now. I may try to make them a Nightwatch/Shadow replacement.

 

[Valkrionn]

Trolls are rather central to the 'Angry Jotnar', for reasons we can't exactly state yet. Would be best to leave them in.

 

[far_wanderer]

Trolls are rather central to the 'Angry Jotnar', for reasons we can't exactly state yet. Would be best to leave them in.

Meaning leave them in unchanged? Or:

Taking that into account, what I'll do is let Thralls that survive for a few levels "upgrade" through a promotion to be Trolls.

If it's the former, should I be putting this mod on hold until you can reveal these reasons? Because I'd really like to start work now but I don't want to have to scrap a bunch of changes in the near future.

 

[Valkrionn]

I think the second option could work with it, but I'll let Vermicious answer. His project.