Broken alliance and evil alliance!

[donsig]

Originally posted by Strider

You talk about taking a rep hit just for taking a lux? We take a rep hit everytime someone declares war on us. The Bab's will now never like us. Persia already hates us. Russia is coming close. And we've been wanting to attack the American's forever.

We have the terrority we need.... The only bonus we can get out of war now is to destroy the other Civ's military units, but they also kill ares. All we are doing with war now is weakening ourselves.

Personally I don't give a hoot about taking a rep hit. Go ahead and sell the lux to Russia as long as that doesn't stop us from attacking them.

We are weakening ourselves because we are building universities instead of cavalry. We are rushing markets instead of upgrading our pikemen. This weakness on our part is what leads to us getting attacked. It's all well and good to say we don't want war but what do we do when we get attacked? Sit back and let them take our cities, pillage our lands and rape our women while we agrue that we don't want war? No, we build up our forces and we kick their butts.

If we sit back now, play the Phony Persian War game again, build universities, let the pikes rust in our soldier's hands and switch to democracy we will be attacked again and again and again!

 

[Donovan Zoi]

@donsig - I am all for pressing on for a Great Leader. It is the only chance we have of getting Universal Suffrage. But to built mass amounts of cavalry to run away damaged from some foreign city is not the best way to use our resources right now.

We would be better off shoring up our defense for the first half of this era.

 

[Donovan Zoi]

Read the Governor's threads, donsig. I am working with them to enhance both militarily and domestically.

 

[Eklektikos]

A war against Russia would not entail long expeditions into their territory, just a few well planned lightning strikes on those cities that fall within the low corruption FP zone. If executed properly we shouldn't find ourselves drawn into a long term conflict - which was never the plan anyway

 

[Shaitan]

I think the plan is fine, except for the Russian deal. We should be planning on attacking them immediately. Put a halt on the Babylonian front and marshall the troops towards Russia. Get those knights upgraded pronto! Get the cav sitting around in the east over to where the action is. We really need to get cycling through our opponents. Babylon is knocked back, Russia is next. After that, we pick on America. In the meantime, Persia serves as our foil - focusing everybody's attention (except the one we're attacking) on the other end of the continent.

 

[Shaitan]

@Strider - We do not take a reputation hit when somebody else declares war on us. Nor do we take a rep hit when we declare war, so long as we are not breaking active treaties when we do so.

 

[Feodor Ardent]

I will support the plans Eyrei, Donavan, and Strider have been activating. The endless attrition of these accidental wars we have been involved in could leave us facing the Persians eventually with a serious technological and productive advantage. The Persians themselves are currently not a great military threat to our homeland, but they could pull in allies who could cause us serious harm. If we solidify our local diplomatic ties to prevent this, the Persian war should fade out without any great strain on the Fanatikan economy or culture.

There are some additional things we can do internally to strength our diplomatic posture, and I will try to do a bit of research on that tonight. My initial glance at the Fanatikan this morning suggests that we have not been doing a good job of deploying our best troops forward to the borders where the foriegners can see them and be dully impressed. And there are other issues.

Feodor
Deputy Foreign Affairs Minister

 

[eyrei]

I don't want to involve the English, because they are weak, and may end up simply providing more land for the Persians.

I can deal without signing any deals with the Russians, but we had best be ready to defend against them...

 

[donsig]

Originally posted by Donovan Zoi
@donsig - I am all for pressing on for a Great Leader... We would be better off shoring up our defense for the first half of this era.

Then let us press ahead for that leader - just remember, we cannot do this unless we have someone to fight!

As for shoring up our defenses, do you not hold the keys to the treasury Donovan Zoi? The treasury keys are the keys to improving our defenses.

 

[donsig]

Originally posted by eyrei
I don't want to involve the English, because they are weak, and may end up simply providing more land for the Persians.

I can deal without signing any deals with the Russians, but we had best be ready to defend against them...

Perhaps it would be in our interests to give military tradition to the English, whether we drag them into the Persian war or not.

Defend against Russia? Isn't an offence the best defense?

 

[Strider]

Originally posted by donsig


Perhaps it would be in our interests to give military tradition to the English, whether we drag them into the Persian war or not.

Defend against Russia? Isn't an offence the best defense?

Sure.... Then lets go disband all of our musket's/riflemen and build calvary to replace them.

 

[eyrei]

Originally posted by Strider


Sure.... Then lets go disband all of our musket's/riflemen and build calvary to replace them.

Strider, I think you know as well as I do that that is not what he meant.

 

[Donovan Zoi]

Originally posted by donsig


Then let us press ahead for that leader - just remember, we cannot do this unless we have someone to fight!

As for shoring up our defenses, do you not hold the keys to the treasury Donovan Zoi? The treasury keys are the keys to improving our defenses.

Duly noted, donsig. For the record I have authorized all musket>rifle and all knight>cavalry upgrade requests in my turnchat instructions to this date. I will continue to do so until all units are upgraded.

The problem is that no-one is requesting them. Is that my job as well? Should the Domestic Office have responsibilty over what units get upgraded in our military? I would think I would be stepping on some Military toes to get that accomplished. But I will do what I can. I have since started working with the governors on a case-by-case basis to upgrade the obsolete units. They request it; my authorization is there.

As you will hopefully see, I am not an enemy of the military, but just have a different way of approaching the same goals you have. If the people wish it, I can go outside the limits of my job to assess what we need and where militarily, and make the appropriate expenditures. I have a good idea now, but feel I shouldn't cross that line.

 

[FortyJ]

Originally posted by donsig
Personally I don't give a hoot about taking a rep hit.

Two thumbs up!

I've been wondering about our obsessive fear of rep hits for some time now myself. I doubt we'll ever be in great standing with the AI nations, and I think we worry too much about how they think about us.

A Foreign Policy based on other nations "liking" us is nowhere near as effective as a foreign policy based on other nations "fearing" us.

<><><><><>

As far as the Democracy movement is concerned, I'm a bit worried about what effect it would have on our economy. Has anyone actually crunched some numbers to estimate the results of switching to Democracy at this time? Our military is quite large and currently partially supported (ie. free, aka no cost, etc...) thanks to our current form of government.

If we were to switch to Democracy, we certainly would experience an improvement in our efficiency, but the cost of supporting our large military may well cancel out these improvements. Of course, we could then sell off a healthy portion of our military to offset this burden, but I don't seriously think that any veteran of the Great Indian War would support such an initiative.

As we are not a religious nation, changing goverments comes at a great cost (numerous periods of anarchy), and therefore should not be undertaken without careful examination.

<><><><><>

Eyrei - I like what you've proposed. My only concern is that if the combined might of Rome, Zulu, America, England, France, China, India and whoever else was at war with Persia oh so long ago couldn't defeat them back then, can we honestly expect France and Greece to hold out against them now?

Their declaration of war is obviously a ploy by Babylon to put pressure on us. They're worried (and they should be) - if we were determined enough, we could conquer them too. If we are about to make peace with Babylon, then I suggest we do not sign any alliances against Persia at this time.

Let us extort whatever we can from Hammertime, inflicting another rep hit on them (if it even matters to the AI, that is) then dial up the Xerx and make peace with him then. Of course, if he's not interested in peace at that time, then we could call up his neighbors and encourage them to join in the fight.

 

[Donovan Zoi]

I have posted an informational poll regarding our switch to Democracy. Obviously, there is still much to discuss but please make your voice heard.

When Should We Enter Democracy?

 

[Feodor Ardent]

Sure.... Then lets go disband all of our musket's/riflemen and build calvary to replace them.

Strider, I think you know as well as I do that that is not what he meant.

Only a mild exageration. Cav IS the only unit we ever seem to use.

 

[donsig]

Originally posted by Donovan Zoi

As you will hopefully see, I am not an enemy of the military, but just have a different way of approaching the same goals you have. If the people wish it, I can go outside the limits of my job to assess what we need and where militarily, and make the appropriate expenditures. I have a good idea now, but feel I shouldn't cross that line.

And you should not cross that line. No arguements there. But there are things you can do like put a hold on all other expenditures until the military is properly upgraded. Start denying requests to upgrade markets and such and soon those requests to upgrade our defenses will pour in.

 

[Feodor Ardent]

This weakness on our part is what leads to us getting attacked. It's all well and good to say we don't want war but what do we do when we get attacked? Sit back and let them take our cities, pillage our lands and rape our women while we agrue that we don't want war? No, we build up our forces and we kick their butts.

As a counter-argument, we have ALREADY kicked everyone's posterior (those within kicking distance) and should have no particular fear of anyone else doing it again, as long as we tend to our defences properly. We already have the necessary force coming on line to destroy any attempt at conquest by a cavalry/infantry equipped enemy.

The only nations out there with the population and industrial capacity to injure us are the Persians and (possibly) the Chinese. Frankly, even if twenty Persian cav suddenly appeared coming out of English territory in about five turns, we could destroy them before they got past Padmativa IF we have deployed and reinforced our armies to do so.

Keeping the other, minor powers in line, to avoid a combination against us, is a job for the foriegn office. Eyrei seems to know how to handle that chore, so we should be able to take time out to transform to a modern economy and get an industrial plant together capable of producing panzers when we need them.

Feodor
Deputy Foreign Affairs Minister

 

[Feodor Ardent]

The problem is that no-one is requesting them. Is that my job as well? Should the Domestic Office have responsibilty over what units get upgraded in our military? I would think I would be stepping on some Military toes to get that accomplished. But I will do what I can. I have since started working with the governors on a case-by-case basis to upgrade the obsolete units. They request it; my authorization is there.

Aye, Donavan, there's the rub. People talk about upgrades, but they don't seem to ever happen. Time for the citizenry to start applying some pressure!

Feodor Ardent
Ragpickers Guild

 

[Fier Canadien]

I agree about this, we have *several* obsolete units that needs almost immediate upgrade (those 3 spears and 47 pikes). Plus the less urgent ones (the 31 muskets). But that doesn't mean not to upgrade the musk., they are just less obsolete than the pikes.

It is imperative that we follow closely the last tech, nec plus ultra, units upgrade. We cannot remain like this with 81 quite obsolete defensive units.

[dance]By the way, 100th post[dance]

On my birthday!!!