Brutal AI

[Aristos]

G, first and foremost, I need to congratulate you and Ilteroi for achieving what seems to be the pinnacle of civ5 AI performance with 1.7.7, and maybe even the peak of the entire series.

I just retired from my first 1.7.7 emperor game because Babylon managed to reach 80 techs before turn 300. I was in a very good position, managed the game well (so did the AIs), but for the Babylon monster. Combat AI was very good in all senses, I don't remember seeing one single blunder, and if there was one, it was so rare that I missed/forgot it. Diplomacy was a blast, and always felt very situational and aware of the game's environment, even WC resolution selections.

What I cannot figure out is how in hell Babylon got so far so fast. Looking at the post-game graphs I see a huge jump of some 25 techs in a very short time, maybe 100 turns, jump that basically decided the game. How did they do that? Science-per-turn wise, they were not ahead of the runner-ups (me included), so did they just burn that many GS? This was with NoTechTrading ON, and RAs ON, but there were not many RAs if at all, DoFs were not present in this game (not very peaceful).

I am pretty sure the answer is No, but I need to ask just to discard that possibility: this performance is not based on huge bonuses to the AI, correct?

Amazing. Well done.

 

[Funak]

I've seen this happen a lot actually, checking various tools I can tell that I'm at least doubling their beakers per turn and yet they still jump ahead in techs. I was going to try and research why it happened but I lost interest.

 

[Gazebo]

What I cannot figure out is how in hell Babylon got so far so fast. Looking at the post-game graphs I see a huge jump of some 25 techs in a very short time, maybe 100 turns, jump that basically decided the game. How did they do that? Science-per-turn wise, they were not ahead of the runner-ups (me included), so did they just burn that many GS? This was with NoTechTrading ON, and RAs ON, but there were not many RAs if at all, DoFs were not present in this game (not very peaceful).

I am pretty sure the answer is No, but I need to ask just to discard that possibility: this performance is not based on huge bonuses to the AI, correct?

Amazing. Well done.

Depending on difficulty, the AI does get a % research reduction that scales each era (same as vanilla civ), but a lot that is most likely that the AI settled in on a science victory condition and optimized towards science.

G

 

[Aristos]

See that huge jump in the graph? That cannot be %research per era bonus. How do they do that? I mean, I am not asking for a recipe or anything, I literally want to know how as in is it coded to do things like that now? How? Using research from production? Specialists? all the above?

Very interesting.

 

[Gamewizard]

Did Babylon found a religion? Did they pick any of the science bonuses?

 

[Fakoleon]

I have to agree with this about AI performance, this is brutal, one of the first time I went into a war of position, fighting and defending for literally centuries trying to move tile by tile thanks to GG and citadel.
Actually it's the first time I found AI "scary", you can't insult every nation and go to war just because you're the most powerful nation, because you're not, and they could crush you, that's a very good point !

As the author mentioned, the last era seem a bit too much of a rush, I watched over files, and it seem AI get a bonus that scale linearly through era, for example in Deity, it's 10% per era, so +70% on info era, am I right?
Well it seem a bit too fast on last phase, maybe add fewer % on last era won't cause this massive rush, which ruin a bit the end game, you just dump your first infantry on the battlefield, same does Ai, but few turns later they send you XCom, copter etc

I did some games in Immortal and Emperor, I would says it become rushy after Atomic era.

I would add a concern about war weariness, in my previous game it comes very high, almost hundred, is this supposed to be capped or something? I felt powerless about is as I like play for domination victory, but I could not go for it become of massive unhappiness, even if I wanted to make peace, AI refuse every turn. I feel like I'm missing something about this feature, is there a way to lower it growth?

 

[Gazebo]

See that huge jump in the graph? That cannot be %research per era bonus. How do they do that? I mean, I am not asking for a recipe or anything, I literally want to know how as in is it coded to do things like that now? How? Using research from production? Specialists? all the above?

Very interesting.

Most likely the founding of the World Congress decreased costs for techs, and then it is also possible that either Research Agreements or policy selections (CS science, influence science, etc.) led to the big jump. May have also been a golden age.

G

 

[Aristos]

Most likely the founding of the World Congress decreased costs for techs, and then it is also possible that either Research Agreements or policy selections (CS science, influence science, etc.) led to the big jump. May have also been a golden age.

G

Just before this gets derailed, OP was NOT a complaint; quite the opposite, a praise.

RAs were non existent, because it was a strange un-friendly game, no single DoF was ever declared by anyone. Tech Trading was OFF. Babylon went all Rationalism, which explains part, but then again, the effects would be seen in Science per Turn, which was not above the rest of the pack.

Only thing I can think of is GS, but can they get so many to explain such a big jump?

Oh, and yes, they had a religion founded, but none of the beliefs were science related as far as I know/remember.

My point is, once again: if this is coded, huuuge KUDOS! (though I still would like to know how the AI did it).

Can wonders explain some of it? Babylon had some 20+ wonders whored... I mean accumulated.

 

[Gazebo]

Just before this gets derailed, OP was NOT a complaint; quite the opposite, a praise.

RAs were non existent, because it was a strange un-friendly game, no single DoF was ever declared by anyone. Tech Trading was OFF. Babylon went all Rationalism, which explains part, but then again, the effects would be seen in Science per Turn, which was not above the rest of the pack.

Only thing I can think of is GS, but can they get so many to explain such a big jump?

Oh, and yes, they had a religion founded, but none of the beliefs were science related as far as I know/remember.

My point is, once again: if this is coded, huuuge KUDOS! (though I still would like to know how the AI did it).

Can wonders explain some of it? Babylon had some 20+ wonders whored... I mean accumulated.

I'll say this: I would not chalk it up to AI handicap bonuses. They help, but the majority of this is just a better AI making better choices.

Did Babylon grab Rationalism?

G

 

[Aristos]

I'll say this: I would not chalk it up to AI handicap bonuses. They help, but the majority of this is just a better AI making better choices.

Did Babylon grab Rationalism?

G

Yes, was in the text you quoted.

I'm still looking at the graph, and I was wrong when I said 25 techs in 100 turns... it was closer to 25 techs in some 50 or less turns... is that even possible with all valid optimizations? Take another look at the graph.

EDIT: again, just in case, NOT a complaint. Genuine technical curiosity (wanna know why I lost )

EDIT 2: looking even closer, is it just a coincidence that the four big jumps in AI techs occur just after each hit the tech ~40...? what is around tech 40? Why is it that 4 of the AIs show exactly the same behavior? Coincidence?

 

[Gazebo]

Yes, was in the text you quoted.

I'm still looking at the graph, and I was wrong when I said 25 techs in 100 turns... it was closer to 25 techs in some 50 or less turns... is that even possible with all valid optimizations? Take another look at the graph.

EDIT: again, just in case, NOT a complaint. Genuine technical curiosity (wanna know why I lost )

EDIT 2: looking even closer, is it just a coincidence that the four big jumps in AI techs occur just after each hit the tech ~40...? what is around tech 40? Why is it that 4 of the AIs show exactly the same behavior? Coincidence?

You want a specific answer, as if this is a hard-coded 'do x at 40 tech' situation. It isn't. There's no hard-coded answer. WC + Rationalism + Golden Ages + Meeting all Civs + Handicap.

G

 

[Horvath Broncos]

How much lower is AIs tech cost in deity? Keeping up with AI is almost impossible. Which is a good thing seeing it's deity and all.

 

[IcyAngel]

How much lower is AIs tech cost in deity? Keeping up with AI is almost impossible. Which is a good thing seeing it's deity and all.

MODS/Community Balance Overhaul/Balance Changes/Difficulty

Hmm actually that tells next to nothing. Don't remember where the file is.

Gazebo?

 

[albie_123]

Is there any list of handicaps available? Can't find one on the changelog.

EDIT: Missed that last post, sorry.

 

[vyyt]

Hmm, maybe Notque's AI vs AI matches can shed more light on this in general if these tech spikes are common ... ?

Anyway, eager to try the latest version's brutal AI

 

[Fakoleon]

MODS/Community Balance Overhaul/Balance Changes/Difficulty

Hmm actually that tells next to nothing. Don't remember where the file is.

Gazebo?

Actually it was correct, you follow this path and go to DifficultyMod.xml
At the bottom you have a line
"<AIPerEraModifier>-10</AIPerEraModifier>" which lower every yield, include science I guess, and stack with eras.

Why ignore my previous post? actually it was question/suggestion more than complain, but I'm not native english speaker, sorry if it feel like that.
If I'm still playing Civ V, it's because of this mod, I just want try help improve it

or maybe it's just one subject per thread and I should PM or something?

 

[albie_123]

Why ignore my previous post? actually it was question/suggestion more than complain, but I'm not native english speaker, sorry if it feel like that.
If I'm still playing Civ V, it's because of this mod, I just want try help improve it

Don't feel too bad, it happens in any forum, on any thread - sometimes posts go unreplied to, but it doesn't mean they're not read and appreciated by the community. Especially in regards to the creators of a mod - Gazebo's got his hands full, and it's understandable if he can't reply to every single post.

That said - if you have a concern on a specific issue (like war weariness), maybe make a new thread, or post in the 'balance' forum.

 

[Forsti]

Most likely the founding of the World Congress decreased costs for techs

Founding the World Congress shouldn't explain Babylon's tech spike considering that they already had a lead of around 6 techs when it started. While meeting other civilizations may have helped with one or two techs, they must have been the first to research the majority of techs.

 

[tompliss]

Also, maybe the Babylonians simply rushed some advanced tech before getting the ones left from the previous eras ?
I know I sometime go for Archeology, which you can get with simply 1 tech per column in the last 2, and only a few before; then the old techs go very quickly, because of the higher science/turn and the bonus because everybody researched them.

 

[Rean]

Yes, was in the text you quoted.

I'm still looking at the graph, and I was wrong when I said 25 techs in 100 turns... it was closer to 25 techs in some 50 or less turns... is that even possible with all valid optimizations? Take another look at the graph.

EDIT: again, just in case, NOT a complaint. Genuine technical curiosity (wanna know why I lost )

EDIT 2: looking even closer, is it just a coincidence that the four big jumps in AI techs occur just after each hit the tech ~40...? what is around tech 40? Why is it that 4 of the AIs show exactly the same behavior? Coincidence?

Around tech 40 they would start getting ideologies. Like Gazebo said, what happened was most likely just the AI stacking science bonus after science bonus for a while, buying great scientists with faith, etc.

Eventually it slows down because there aren't really more significant science boosts to be had after research labs and rationalism + ideology aside from spaceship factories, and great scientists eventually become too expensive.

I've noticed this happening in my games aswell, I've had situations where Harun al Rashid starting outteching me severely around the ideologies stage.