Buff Manifest Destiny!!!

[Glassmage]

So you all know America UA sux.

This ability below was from the Wonder of the World patch for Sumeria.

Land of Two Rivers - Free GS from Writing, and all units pay only 1 movement to enter any tile adjacent to river.

That second ability there was supposed to be in Manifest Destiny and USA get river bias start. I think it's time to add both of these back in again so USA can be an efficient REX nation.

 

[Roxlimn]

Glassmage:

The UA's very recently been buffed a bit. We're still trying it out. Arguably, buying tiles for free is OP, so it can be buffed the way it is right now sufficiently where it's reasonably strong.

 

[AbbieRevo]

Is it up to a 50% discount now? I thought it was still at 25%.

Still, I'd say It still needs a little something something.

Maybe either include culture costs in the discount, or add a little
Buff like +33% or 50 % settler build in capital.

 

[Roxlimn]

I believe it's up to 50% but I'm not entirely sure. With further reductions, I think you could reduce it to 25% of the necessary amount, which makes tile-buy really dirt cheap, depending on usage. It may be cheaper to buy early tiles rather than build culture buildings to claim tiles.

 

[civnoob13]

Why are we talking about buffing the American UA even more (not to say that it is good, just saying it is already buffed) when England is probably the weakest UA now and has never been buffed? England's UA is much worse than America's. Maybe they should have -25% unhappiness from number of cities to represent the British Empire of old (although then it wouldn't be England any more I suppose).

 

[stealth_nsk]

It's pointless to consider UA without UU and UB. England has one of the strongest UU in the game, I even think the strongest one. With buff to coastal playstyle in the latest patch (as Trade Units now favor Harbors and Seaports more) England UA is also helpful.

For America - I don't think their ability is awful, +1 sight helps in combat a lot and allows getting nice early bonuses. And their Minutemen are a lot of fun, especially combined with this ability.

I'd say both are in bottom half of civs, but not radically weak.

 

[AbbieRevo]

I believe it's up to 50% but I'm not entirely sure. With further reductions, I think you could reduce it to 25% of the necessary amount, which makes tile-buy really dirt cheap, depending on usage. It may be cheaper to buy early tiles rather than build culture buildings to claim tiles.

They got rid of the SP that reduced tile costs, so I don't think there are any other modifiers left. Plus, I believe the general Consensus is that neither players nor AI tend to want to spend money on buying tiles very often. While MD makes this perhaps more desirable, I think it needs a little push to be on par with most other civs.

Maybe a worker action bonus, or even a free worker at game start.

As to England, I think they should completely alter it to affect combat strength for navies, with perhaps a flat cash bonus for coastal cities, or a +1g on coastal waters.

 

[Roxlimn]

AbbieRevo:

I think they left Angor Wat in. Could be wrong. I also believe that the Tradition Opener reduces tile cost as well.

 

[AbbieRevo]

AbbieRevo:

I think they left Angor Wat in. Could be wrong. I also believe that the Tradition Opener reduces tile cost as well.

I though AW only did culture cost, but you could very well be correct.

The tradition opener only affects culture though.

 

[turingmachine]

That second ability there was supposed to be in Manifest Destiny and USA get river bias start. I think it's time to add both of these back in again so USA can be an efficient REX nation.

How do you know the USA was supposed to get that ability? Especially since I think the XML schema to actually use that ability was only added with a later patch. Because they have a river bias? There are a lot of reasons for that, heck a river bias by itself might have been a buff.

 

[civnoob13]

They got rid of the SP that reduced tile costs, so I don't think there are any other modifiers left. Plus, I believe the general Consensus is that neither players nor AI tend to want to spend money on buying tiles very often. While MD makes this perhaps more desirable, I think it needs a little push to be on par with most other civs.

Maybe a worker action bonus, or even a free worker at game start.

As to England, I think they should completely alter it to affect combat strength for navies, with perhaps a flat cash bonus for coastal cities, or a +1g on coastal waters.

+1g on all water tiles is way OP IMHO, bearing in mind that Colossus only does this for one city. I also think, against AI, a naval combat bonus would be pretty weak. Maybe +2 per city to represent the monarchy as well as the naval movement bonus.

 

[MadDjinn]

The american UA is just fine.

+1 sight is decent by itself. (far more utility than the +2 move england gets)
-50% tile purchase costs is actual ok. For the first 150 turns, at which point it's less interesting. (unless you're still settling lands, or razing some cities while buying the tiles with other ones)

paying only 25g (at the start) for key tiles now (like a lux which you then sell for 240g) instead of waiting for the culture to get it (so lost turns = lost gold) is solid. (can grab a few forests to chop for 20hammers on a key wonder)

Keep in mind that the B17 is a massive late game beast. Now you can start with 3 promotions (plus the given siege 1) to have Siege 2, Logistics AND Air repair. It also never obsoletes, so upgrading that beast to a stealth bomber is almost as nice as a nuke. not quite, but getting there...

England definitely needs a UA buff. the SOTLs are 'ok' but since it takes forever to get them to logistics, they run out of usefulness fairly quickly. (not to mention the upgrade costs...)

 

[Roxlimn]

MadDjinn:

Given how the English have been a significant naval power even into the era of Battleships, perhaps it's best to give SOTL's an inherent upgrade or two towards gaining the all-important Logistics? Perhaps free Land Bombardment 1?

 

[MadDjinn]

MadDjinn:

Given how the English have been a significant naval power even into the era of Battleships, perhaps it's best to give SOTL's an inherent upgrade or two towards gaining the all-important Logistics? Perhaps free Land Bombardment 1?

well, if they do get one, it'd have to be targeting 1. They controlled the trade routes, which was more about ship to ship combat.

given that there's also an inherent -60% in navy v navy combat, that would make them more 'efficient'.

Anything more than that would make them too powerful.

I'd prefer some sort of UA addition related to gold. Given they had a tiny island base, they really managed to create a massive gold empire.

 

[Furycrab]

I rather love manifest destiny, Buying tiles for next to nothing is really nice and the sight bonus makes fighting wars and initial scouting feel like cheating. In a strategy game scouting is a very powerful tool, it's not that much different in Civ. You can have a really good win ratio with Washington even if he doesn't really do anything faster than anyone else (better initial settling, fewer combat tactical mistakes).

England on the other hand I think needs a whole lot more help. You need ridiculous specific map conditions for it to be remotely useful. Longbows can be fairly ridiculous though <.<.

 

[Roxlimn]

Just need Continents, actually. Even on Continents, the fact that your Embarked Units move at 4 move instead of 2 means that you can get a lot more scouting done sooner around the coasts. Helps for transporting troops to a potential combat site as well.

It's still not megapowerful, but it's useful.

 

[insaneweasel]

America's UA only needs to change it so that the cost AND culture of tiles is reduced by 50%

 

[AbbieRevo]

I think a free worker at start could be interesting, without being op.

 

[thetwistedoak]

Well I loved the American UA. For my scout could find all the faster, avoid the barbs by ending it's turn in rough terrain and get a lot of from national wonders. The best thing was that i could very fast see the entire pangea and by that allways for the rest of the game see where the AI settled it's cities and by that allso see where all the wonders was. It made planning and expanding easier.

The Minute Man was an effective unit as it could easily get to the enemy front and when it was on level 3 (30 exp) able to get Drill 3 as it starts with Drill 1. Making it +65% in rough terrain powerful. And by that one level faster for March and Blitz.

Buying tiles was also fun to keep my score up and grab land easier.

 

[ArcaneSeraph]

I'm not 100% convinced that america's UA is that bad. With the right policies and such it can fund a very rapid expansion and promote more ideal city placement (i.e., no need to plop key resources in ring 1 - 2... just buy the ring 3 tile).

If, however, people feel that it needs a boost I think starting with a scout in addition to the warrior would be the way to go.